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Discussion Starter #1
Take an educated guess as to where I’ll be...I think I’ll be in the 420 range...

2001 GT
Small N/A cams (XE26H)
BBK 78mm
Longtubes and full exhaust
Procharger D1SC 3.85 pulley
Stock Crank Pulley
Procharger 2 Core IC
60lb Siemens Deka
Walbro 255 and a Vortech Boost a Pump
93 Octane
Stock Bottom End

(I’m currently sitting at 275w).

IF you all are pretty confident that I’ll be higher than 420w than I’ll be buying a 4.0 pulley.
 

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my guess is between 410-430 rwhp and 4
395-415 rwtq.

I had a similar setup once...
-comp 262's (not degreed)
-long tubes, x pipe, catbacks
70mm throttlebody/plenum
[email protected] psi.. made 415rwhp and 397 rwtq.
 
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Guessing horsepower is complicated because there are so many variable. But I'll give it a shot. This is a pure guess. I have no other insight other than what I have read.

The fuel pump and fuel injectors add no horsepower. They just support other mods that do make horsepower. The TB/Plenum may add 2-3 rwhp which isn't significant. Something like that falls within the margin of error for an estimate. A P1SC with a 3.85" pulley through a 2-core makes around 6 psi. A D1SC makes around 4 psi more with the same pulley. So I'm going to estimate 10 psi total, maybe 11. NA cams work but are not the best cam to use with a supercharger. A naturally-aspirated motor benefits from scavenging. With a supercharger they let some boost out the exhaust. Still, they are a lot better than stock cams. Cams also make an engine more efficient so the motor will use more air reducing the back pressure on the supercharger also lowering measured boost. Because of that 10 psi is probably the best guess. It might be less I don't know. If long-tubes add power it is usually mid-range and not so much at peak. Those reporting peak gains usually reported 7-10 rwhp. And, finally I do not know whether you have a manual or automatic transmission. Autos have 5% more parasitic loss. I'm going to assume a manual transmission for my initial estimate.

I make 383 rwhp SAE corrected at 8.9 psi with stock cams and long-tubes. I saw no peak gain with LTs but my tune was corrected at the time. There is a rule of thumb that says for every 1 psi more in boost you get 10 rwhp more on a stock motor. Running 10 psi should put you around 393 rwhp. Cams should add another 30 rwhp. Add a little at peak for LTs and my guess is that it will be somewhere around 425-430 rwhp SAE. Depending on your location that could be around 435-440 rwhp if STD correction is used instead of SAE. If you have an automatic then then I'll guess 400 rwhp SAE or 414 rwhp STD.

A centrifugal supercharger almost always generates less torque than horsepower so my guess is that torque will be 15 lower than horsepower so for a manual transmission SAE corrected my guess is 425-430 rwhp/410-415 rwtq.

You do not need to buy a new pulley. The general rule of thumb is that the stock rods and pistons are safe at 400 rwhp or 450 rwhp with cams. Cams make the motor more efficient putting less stress on rods and pistons. If you think you are making to much horsepower then have your tuner pull some timing.
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks guys. I'll keep the pulley at 3.85.
 

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Ill guess 420s with 16* total timing 440s with 18* timing. If its a "safe" tune in the 13-14* total timing you will be right around 400. Torque will be ~25 down from peak HP

Unless you have a wide variety of 93 pumps around your area I would suggest 91 so you can go anywhere.
 

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Ill guess 420s with 16* total timing 440s with 18* timing. If its a "safe" tune in the 13-14* total timing you will be right around 400. Torque will be ~25 down from peak HP

Unless you have a wide variety of 93 pumps around your area I would suggest 91 so you can go anywhere.
We have 93 everywhere. WE have E85 in most places as well. I'll be sure my tuner knows to keep the tune conservative. He knows me well and knows my preferences. I'm not looking for a dyno queen.
 

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Aren't you limited to the limits of stock internals. After years of research I read 400 is the safe limit even tho blowers can push that.
Yes 400w is the agreed upon limit of the stock short block. With cams and longtubes you can get away with a bit more due to the less cylinder pressures but making more power. If I'm at 420w I'll be more than happy. I may even have him detune it from there.
 

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Aren't you limited to the limits of stock internals. After years of research I read 400 is the safe limit even tho blowers can push that.
Nah I would say with a good tune 450 is a better bottom end WHP limit. The high torque numbers that come with turbo cars at the 400 WHP range will kill the stock internals as well. There are plenty of guys running around 450 whp that have been running for years.

400 is on the "safe" side but people blow there **** up with less so....
 

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Aren't you limited to the limits of stock internals. After years of research I read 400 is the safe limit even tho blowers can push that.
Back when this forum was very active people constantly argued what the upper limit was. Some said 400 rwhp other more. ProCharger defined the upper limit in terms of boost. Their online table said 12 psi for Windsors motors. 8 psi for Romeos. The Windsor motor (99-early 01) is slightly different than its Romeo counterpart (late 01-04). It was designed to be a truck engine. If I remember correctly its piston has an 18cc dish instead of a 12cc dish. Its compression ratio is 9.0:1 instead of 9.4:1. It was designed as a truck more and even has slightly different connecting rods. The same ones used in the 99, 01 four valve Cobra. All of those little things made the Windsor motor respond a little better to boost than the Romeo. But not very much.

Tuners at the time usually said that 380 rwhp was safe on an otherwise completely stock motor. But people pushed that up with other mods so the general rule of thumb was that 400 rwhp is generally safe. Motors with a bad tune or having undetected internal problems have blown up at 380-400 rwhp. Its not completely safe but it is generally safe.

When people throw out numbers they generally don't list all the mods. A lot of people pushed even higher saying 450 was safe. A couple of people said 500 because a dedicated race car was running that. What they did not say was the high horsepower motors had cams and were running E85 fuel. They also didn't talk about how long they would last at that level. Because of this there were a few that tried to get to 450 on boost alone. I remember a couple. One person was running 13 psi (around 425 rwhp). His motor last about nine months. Another pushed it up to 14 psi (around 435 rwhp). His motor didn't last that long.

What is known is that cams add horsepower without adding a lot of additional stress on the rods so theory and street tests seem to agree that the general safe horsepower rule is 10 psi, 400 rwhp without cams and near 450 rwhp with cams (probably closer to 440 but everyone uses 450) using 93 octane street gas.

P.S. Dynos have to be calibrated for barometric pressure, humidity and temperature. I have seen some very optimistic dynographs posted listing very high correction factors for the recorded barometric pressure, humidity and temperature. I'm not sure that some installers didn't tweak the system to make their customers happy. Also there are two different correction methodologies that use entirely different baselines. STD usually reports a higher horsepower than SAE. I remember one member used raw numbers instead of corrected. It was a particularly cool day and both correction factors calculated a lower number.
 
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P.S. Dynos have to be calibrated for barometric pressure, humidity and temperature. I have seen some very optimistic dynographs posted listing very high correction factors for the recorded barometric pressure, humidity and temperature. I'm not sure that some installers didn't tweak the system to make their customers happy. Also there are two different correction methodologies that use entirely different baselines. STD usually reports a higher horsepower than SAE. I remember one member used raw numbers instead of corrected. It was a particularly cool day and both correction factors calculated a lower number.
This is too true. I ran my SHO on a dyno and liked the STD corrected number more because they were higher (not by much but by enough). Some shops 'trick' the dyno into thinking the operating conditions are worse than they really are, so that the corrected numbers are skewed.
 

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I'm pretty sure the numbers in my signature are accurate. My car has been on three different dynos. A Mustang Dyno and two Dynojets. The Mustang Dyno and the first Dynojet used SAE correction and had similar results. The second Dynojet used STD correction so I asked what the SAE numbers were. SAE fell right in line with the other two. STD was higher. I put in my signature three dyno numbers all from the exact same pull. I thought it was interesting STD added 8 rwhp to the raw numbers and SAE subtracted 5 rwhp. The conditions that day fell almost exactly in the middle of the two baselines.
 

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Back when this forum was very active people constantly argued what the upper limit was. Some said 400 rwhp other more. ProCharger defined the upper limit in terms of boost. Their online table said 12 psi for Windsors motors. 8 psi for Romeos. The Windsor motor (99-early 01) is slightly different than its Romeo counterpart (late 01-04). It was designed to be a truck engine. If I remember correctly its piston has an 18cc dish instead of a 12cc dish. Its compression ratio is 9.0:1 instead of 9.4:1. It was designed as a truck more and even has slightly different connecting rods. The same ones used in the 99, 01 four valve Cobra. All of those little things made the Windsor motor respond a little better to boost than the Romeo. But not very much.

Tuners at the time usually said that 380 rwhp was safe on an otherwise completely stock motor. But people pushed that up with other mods so the general rule of thumb was that 400 rwhp is generally safe. Motors with a bad tune or having undetected internal problems have blown up at 380-400 rwhp. Its not completely safe but it is generally safe.

When people throw out numbers they generally don't list all the mods. A lot of people pushed even higher saying 450 was safe. A couple of people said 500 because a dedicated race car was running that. What they did not say was the high horsepower motors had cams and were running E85 fuel. They also didn't talk about how long they would last at that level. Because of this there were a few that tried to get to 450 on boost alone. I remember a couple. One person was running 13 psi (around 425 rwhp). His motor last about nine months. Another pushed it up to 14 psi (around 435 rwhp). His motor didn't last that long.

What is known is that cams add horsepower without adding a lot of additional stress on the rods so theory and street tests seem to agree that the general safe horsepower rule is 10 psi, 400 rwhp without cams and near 450 rwhp with cams (probably closer to 440 but everyone uses 450) using 93 octane street gas.

P.S. Dynos have to be calibrated for barometric pressure, humidity and temperature. I have seen some very optimistic dynographs posted listing very high correction factors for the recorded barometric pressure, humidity and temperature. I'm not sure that some installers didn't tweak the system to make their customers happy. Also there are two different correction methodologies that use entirely different baselines. STD usually reports a higher horsepower than SAE. I remember one member used raw numbers instead of corrected. It was a particularly cool day and both correction factors calculated a lower number.
I made 410 SAE on a dynojet with 10.5 psi out of a 99 Windsor block with over 130k and was at 375 on 8psi for about 40k miles before that. Now I'm at 448 SAE (same dyno every time) at 13 psi been about 6k miles so far at that level and the stock block has almost 160k miles. If I remember correctly the Romeo has -15cc pistons and the Windsor had -18 like you stated. I had no clue the rods were any different this is the first time I have heard that.

I'm saying 450 as a stock internal safe limit with a centri charger and full bolt ons. I think I'm on the edge of safe at this point (without cams) but I'm not afraid to pop the motor as I am in very high need for a good excuse to finish my other motor up.
 

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I have never physically compared them. I only had one source that said they were slightly thicker. They are both powder metal rods with cracked caps so most of the sources don't differentiate. But they are different and not interchangeable. My sources are old and the links to them seem to be disappearing. The link to that source stopped working so I deleted it a couple of years ago.

I deleted a link to a reference at Sullivan just today that had stopped working. The old references are slowly going away. Here are a couple that still work. Who knows how long they will keep working.
http://www.paladinmicro.com/documents/Ford4.6LInfo.pdf
The Ford 4.6L Modular Engine
Ford Modular V-8 Engine - Mustang & Fords Magazine
 

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I have never physically compared them. I only had one source that said they were slightly thicker. They are both powder metal rods with cracked caps so most of the sources don't differentiate. But they are different and not interchangeable. My sources are old and the links to them seem to be disappearing. The link to that source stopped working so I deleted it a couple of years ago.

I deleted a link to a reference at Sullivan just today that had stopped working. The old references are slowly going away. Here are a couple that still work. Who knows how long they will keep working.
http://www.paladinmicro.com/documents/Ford4.6LInfo.pdf
The Ford 4.6L Modular Engine
Ford Modular V-8 Engine - Mustang & Fords Magazine
I think the issue with interchangeability is the floating wrist pin in the Windsor piston and the pressed fit wrist pin in the Romeo. Other than that the rods seem to be identical from what I have seen so far.

GBpackerfan

when will we have numbers???
 

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I think the issue with interchangeability is the floating wrist pin in the Windsor piston and the pressed fit wrist pin in the Romeo. Other than that the rods seem to be identical from what I have seen so far.

GBpackerfan

when will we have numbers???
It won't be for a little bit. The car is just now in the garage ready to start taking it a part. I will have numbers within 4-8 weeks depending. I'm still debating on the pulley size. I feel 3.85 is too small considering this is a D1...still talking to my tuner about what size to go with.
 
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IMHO the horsepower number only has a portion of the roll on how long an engine will last. It also comes down to the tune, how you drive, the mechanical setup. I've been pushing mine for over a year at 482whp and there has been plenty of guys at 500+ with stock LB with out any issues. If you come in above the "safe" power limit I honestly wouldnt worry about it to much, as long as the tune and everything else is sound just enjoy the car
 
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