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Discussion Starter #21
Yeah, maybe the idea of a Taser is more effective than the actual Taser. I can see someone getting pretty ticked off if you fire a taser and miss, or it hits them and doesn't do its job lol.
I get that, but I just don't do threats. The way I see it, I'm not going to draw my gun on anyone unless I am genuinely in fear for my life. So, by that point, I'm committed. If I draw on someone, if they don't immediately stop what they're doing that's got me scared between me getting on target and saying, "STOP OR I WILL SHOOT YOU" in my "don't **** with me" voice, then they're going to get shot.

I feel that 3 to 4 tenths of a second is sufficient to back the **** off from me.

For a less than lethal option? **** em. They're not going to die. Light em up. I see no reason to hesitate with a can of mace or a tazer. Someone's getting in your ****, get them out of your **** right now. Don't give them time to react/prepare. In my wife's cousin's case (cousin in law?) she was violated. May not be on the same level as rape, but it's rapidly approaching sexual assault and I feel making his eyes burn for a day or three is the correct amount of force. Curb stomping him while he's down crosses that line, and as much as I love my wife's response, it's the incorrect one.

My thinking is all about the appropriate use of force, and knowing when to draw the line. Ever see those videos of the assholes dressed as clowns terrorizing the downtown areas with chainsaws and hammers, they're trying to be funny, scaring folks and all, may even be around Halloween, not sure, but they start threatening a guy who draws his gun and says, "STOP OR I WILL SHOOT YOU!" and they curl up into little balls saying "It's a joke! It's a joke!" To me, that is the exact right thing to do. I am personally not taking a chance that the guy dressed as a killer clown with a running chainsaw in the middle of a public street is just "kidding". I'm going to point my gun at you and give you ONE chance to back the **** up and lie down on the ground. Running away is also a valid option for them. My life is far too valuable to me to give a guy with a sledgehammer or a chainsaw a chance to get within Mace range.
 

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I get that, but I just don't do threats. The way I see it, I'm not going to draw my gun on anyone unless I am genuinely in fear for my life. So, by that point, I'm committed. If I draw on someone, if they don't immediately stop what they're doing that's got me scared between me getting on target and saying, "STOP OR I WILL SHOOT YOU" in my "don't **** with me" voice, then they're going to get shot.

I feel that 3 to 4 tenths of a second is sufficient to back the **** off from me.

For a less than lethal option? **** em. They're not going to die. Light em up. I see no reason to hesitate with a can of mace or a tazer. Someone's getting in your ****, get them out of your **** right now. Don't give them time to react/prepare. In my wife's cousin's case (cousin in law?) she was violated. May not be on the same level as rape, but it's rapidly approaching sexual assault and I feel making his eyes burn for a day or three is the correct amount of force. Curb stomping him while he's down crosses that line, and as much as I love my wife's response, it's the incorrect one.

My thinking is all about the appropriate use of force, and knowing when to draw the line. Ever see those videos of the assholes dressed as clowns terrorizing the downtown areas with chainsaws and hammers, they're trying to be funny, scaring folks and all, may even be around Halloween, not sure, but they start threatening a guy who draws his gun and says, "STOP OR I WILL SHOOT YOU!" and they curl up into little balls saying "It's a joke! It's a joke!" To me, that is the exact right thing to do. I am personally not taking a chance that the guy dressed as a killer clown with a running chainsaw in the middle of a public street is just "kidding". I'm going to point my gun at you and give you ONE chance to back the **** up and lie down on the ground. Running away is also a valid option for them. My life is far too valuable to me to give a guy with a sledgehammer or a chainsaw a chance to get within Mace range.
I agree with all of that. Especially the killer clown thing. I am surprised those morons haven't gotten themselves into some **** with someone yet.
 

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6 Cylinduh, Really Bruh?
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Foxfive, have you ever dealt with a situation where lethal use was used for self protection? Was it warranted? How did the shooter feel afterwards? Was he like "Well it was justified so I'm good" or did he break down?
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Foxfive, have you ever dealt with a situation where lethal use was used for self protection? Was it warranted? How did the shooter feel afterwards? Was he like "Well it was justified so I'm good" or did he break down?
I've considered this as well.

I don't want to kill anyone. I don't hunt. I don't want to ever have to point my gun at someone, because that means I'm a breath away from shooting them/killing them.

I have zero doubt it'll **** me up for awhile. But, being the realist that I am, what other choice do I have in a life or death situation?
If I'm going to die, I'll die. But I don't want to die at someone else's hands if I can prevent it. If I can prevent it without killing them, all the better, but the realist in me says I'd rather deal with the guilt of ending someone's life for a very justified reason than be killed.
 

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If I need to pull my gun to protect myself from danger, then that person is dangerous and doesn't need to be around to see court and clog the system. One and done. Don't want to die don't **** with people. Bullets give you the spanking your mama never did. Plenty of **** bags are shot and still think street cred is real still trying to be hard. Now that's a shame.
 

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It's not easy being green!
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I am a firm supporter of OC over a Taser in most circumstances. I have seen Tasers fail too many times from things like a disconnect, a close spread of the probes etc. Tasers are great for stopping someone from thinking about becoming physical, the red laser dot on the torso deters a lot of bad guys. Once the fight is on and say for instance you have somebody on the ground and they continue to fight, a quick burst of OC disturbs them more than a drive stun from a taser or a shot with a close spread of the probes. In a situation like that with a taser the best thing to do is shoot them close (almost against the skin or against it) with the Taser say in the middle back. Then take the connections on the Taser itself and contact them in the side of the neck or upper back. You should get compliance. The further distance between the probes the more likely they are to lock out.
Getting tased feels like getting hit by a bus. And that bus is on fire. Powered by a SBF swap. But the issue like you said, of getting a good connection, can be challenging, especially if they're wearing heavier clothing. Also if it malfunctions, you basically have a paperweight. Our dept. carries Saber Red as well. Both devices have their pros and cons but for most people, if you're going non-lethal, Pepper spray is the way to go versus a 900 dollar taser and 30 buck for each cartridge.

It works on most people, its cheap, and hurts way worst than being tased. That being said, you can't pay me enough to get tased again :lol do you guys carry the X26? We do, and are in the transition of upgrading to the X26P
 

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PSN alphadong11
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I think cops have to carry too much ****. Hey look its bat belt, happy to put this on every day, said no cop ever. Cuffs, sw40 and collapsible baton is all that should be mandatory on the belt. Cameras I am for, but they are probably shoulder mount. Just like a business, if you try to make 100% of the people happy, you are bound to fail. This bean bag **** just begs hippies to come out. Want to stop unjust shootings, stop the random shootings that never make the news, mostly over drugs or drug territory. Or stop being idiots. But that looks like it will never change so go ahead and riot over a handfull of people that didn't know where to keep their hands.
 

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Keep in mind if you go the taser route some states require a carry permit to carry a taser. Not that it is a problem or that I'm against them or carrying, just check your state laws before you decide to carry one to make sure you're not the one on the wrong side of the law.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
I think cops have to carry too much ****. Hey look its bat belt, happy to put this on every day, said no cop ever. Cuffs, sw40 and collapsible baton is all that should be mandatory on the belt. Cameras I am for, but they are probably shoulder mount. Just like a business, if you try to make 100% of the people happy, you are bound to fail. This bean bag **** just begs hippies to come out. Want to stop unjust shootings, stop the random shootings that never make the news, mostly over drugs or drug territory. Or stop being idiots. But that looks like it will never change so go ahead and riot over a handfull of people that didn't know where to keep their hands.

I actually think that a Google Glass style mount, with a connection to a storage device that has enough storage for an entire day is a better choice. The google glass "frame" won't interfere with glasses, sunglasses, etc and will get you footage of where the officer is looking vs where their chest is pointed.

I also don't think they should be able to turn it off, or erase the footage themselves. To me, that just screams corruption.

More footage can only exonerate the good officers put in a bad situation, and punish the bad officers that shouldn't be on the force.
 

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Foxfive, have you ever dealt with a situation where lethal use was used for self protection? Was it warranted? How did the shooter feel afterwards? Was he like "Well it was justified so I'm good" or did he break down?
Luckily not personally. Hope I don't have to. I am fully prepared to but I'm sure it's not an easy thing to deal with. Even when you take somebody down physically you think about it, worry about liability. I broke a guys pelvis in a foot pursuit and it was a shitty feeling worrying about being sued.

If there comes a point in my career where I second guess taking a life to save myself or another, I will quit.
 

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Luckily not personally. Hope I don't have to. I am fully prepared to but I'm sure it's not an easy thing to deal with. Even when you take somebody down physically you think about it, worry about liability. I broke a guys pelvis in a foot pursuit and it was a shitty feeling worrying about being sued.

If there comes a point in my career where I second guess taking a life to save myself or another, I will quit.
I think he meant dealing with a citizen who had used their firearm in self defense of themselves.
 

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I think he meant dealing with a citizen who had used their firearm in self defense of themselves.
No on a citizen shooting either. I had people pull guns and point them for self defense. In one case I actually did a warrant for the guy pulling the gun. Basically this guy that had the gun started a road wage type incident with another guy. The guy with the gun was in the wrong. They continued up to Walmart and the guy who had the gun parked a distance away from the other guy and was looking at him. The guy without the gun stared at the guy with the gun as he walked in the store. Then the guy with the gun drove over and stopped behind the other guy's car. He then drove back and parked watching the car again. The other guy saw this and thought the guy with the gun was going to do something to his car so he walked out and approached him to see what the problem was. He was not armed and significanlty smaller than the other guy. The Guy with the gun pulled it out and pointed it at the other guy's head. There were customers in the lot when this happened. The guy who had the gun pointed at him said a few things, laughed and went into the store. The guy with to gun actually called the police. I arrested him on a warrant because basically the guy with the gun started the incident, remained on scene thinking something was going to happen, then claimed self defense for pulling the gun. He told me he had the stay at the store because he needed cough syrup and no other stores were open. The guy with the gun also told me he felt he could take the other guy in a fight but that he was under the weather and didn't feel good so he didn't want to get disarmed. I think he was looking to do pull his gun personally. He also had a few expandable batons in his vehicle.

As far as equipment and the Taser. I don't even carry a baton anymore, they are useless. I was upgraded from an X26 but am getting swapped again because we just started a contract with Taser for a Taser body cam package. I bought the Oakley Flak Jackets that accept the camera so it side mounts. I'm just going to run clear lenses all the time. The side mount offers the best protection and view point.
 

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If you are a CPL holder and involved in something like that, you should have your CPL revoked. That guy was a nut case and is a liability to the rest of us who are CPL holders and would NEVER act like that.


I have only had one time where I was scared and thought I might have to notify said individual I was carrying, but I am a firm believer like many of you seem to be by your statements that you should never reveal you are armed until you severely feel your life is in jeopardy, and at that point the gun is pulled and either used immediately or a couple quick words are spoken to keep them at bay until police show up.


We have a bridge in town that raises for tall sail boats to go through and of course everyone hates getting stuck at it when it goes up. There is two lanes of traffic leading up to it, and stupidly the right lane ends just before it to turn into a hotel. I was coming around the left corner and noticed traffic a bit backed up, but this wasn't unusual in summer even if the bridge was down, so I stayed in the right lane until I rounded the corner and noticed the bridge was up. I saw an opening wide enough for a car between a half ton pickup and another vehicle, so I put my car in that gap. Seconds later this guy in the truck I went in front of to close the gap quickly jumps out of his truck and runs to my window that was down. He starts screaming at me right in the middle of the road while we are waiting for the bridge. He says *screaming* "I left that spot open so people in the apartments could get out! Not so dumbasses like you could park there!" Then says a bunch of other **** I don't remember during his tyrant and finished it out with "So yeah, this spot wasn't for you!" I looked at him and said "Well, the streets aren't for people to stand in the middle of and yell at people, but yet here you are....." He shakes his hands and runs back to his truck. He passes me and flips me off ASAP once the bridge goes down. That's when I noticed the "Little League Couch" sticker on the back of his truck and two little heads in the backseat. Dad of the year goes to.......

Either way, I quickly gauged the situation and he wasn't getting any closer to my vehicle, just yelling. So I sat there and just let him finish. If he got closer and closer looking like he might try to grab me out of the car I would have informed him that I have a pistol, and I don't plan on fighting him. Thankfully it never went to that and we both went on with life. I just laughed after he left about how I surely ruined his day for nothing more than parking in a spot he apparently left open for people to leave the apartment complex. A duty that makes him sound like quite the nice guy who considers other people, until they cross his intentions. At that point he just explodes. He must be a Liberal :lol
 

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That's one of the reason I don't really like open carry element of surprise is lost. If a dude sees you open carrying and still approaches or starts a fight with you, you are going to have a problem.
Exactly. I respect their right to do so, but for this very reason I find it really stupid. Not to mention you'll then have to deal with all the morons who want to come up and argue with you. Personally I think a good portion of them do it for this very reason. They want people to approach them and tell them it's illegal just so they can get in a debate about politics and tell them how it isn't.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Exactly. I respect their right to do so, but for this very reason I find it really stupid. Not to mention you'll then have to deal with all the morons who want to come up and argue with you. Personally I think a good portion of them do it for this very reason. They want people to approach them and tell them it's illegal just so they can get in a debate about politics and tell them how it isn't.

Don't forget the extremists who try to swat people who open carry (or let their concealed show), or even worse, try to attack them/take their gun like in Walmart a year or two ago.

Open carry is tactically unsound.
 

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Dirt Dives Me Crazy
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Sabre also makes pepper spray that marks the asshole with uv dye so they don't even know it's on them until a light is shined on them. We use Sabre at work so that's what I got my wife to carry.
 

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6 Cylinduh, Really Bruh?
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Exactly. I respect their right to do so, but for this very reason I find it really stupid. Not to mention you'll then have to deal with all the morons who want to come up and argue with you. Personally I think a good portion of them do it for this very reason. They want people to approach them and tell them it's illegal just so they can get in a debate about politics and tell them how it isn't.

Don't forget the extremists who try to swat people who open carry (or let their concealed show), or even worse, try to attack them/take their gun like in Walmart a year or two ago.

Open carry is tactically unsound.
I'll never understand open carry. It takes away from the element of surprise and what do you think the bad guy is going to go for first? Makes no sense to me. It doesn't scream "I got a gun don't bother me" it screams "I got a gun. Disarm me first then take what I have!"
 

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Discussion Starter #40
I'll never understand open carry. It takes away from the element of surprise and what do you think the bad guy is going to go for first? Makes no sense to me. It doesn't scream "I got a gun don't bother me" it screams "I got a gun. Disarm me first then take what I have!"
I agree. And i feel announcing you have a gun by any means other than pointing it at them is also giving away your element of surprise.
I haven't had an experience where I've had to draw, or even thought about drawing yet, BUT, my thought is if someone were approaching me, I would order them to back off, leave me alone, and go away. Failure to comply and me feeling threatened enough (if they're approaching me with a baseball bat/tire iron/pipe/knife etc) and they continue to advance, the only "warning" they get is me drawing on them. My order will be repeated, but if they continue to advance, they're getting shot. Not taking a hit to the head with a bat to justify shooting someone, approaching me with one should be all the justification I need, as that is a deadly weapon, and a serious threat.
 
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