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missippi roolz
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I just saw this article. The Trump 2020 campaign raised $3.1 million during the impeachment hearing in small dollar twitter donations. The goal was $3 million in 24 hours. Response was so good they upped the goal to $5 million in 24 hours.
"FAKE IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS HAVE BEGUN!"

****ing lmao

christ some people are dumb

"IMPEACHMENT SCAM" (unlike this totally-not-scam that will quite possibly swindle your paltry donation to pay off hooker abortions and continue to fund our ability to blatantly skirt the constitution's emoluments clause)
 

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US Air Force (retired)
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I'm sure that the Trump campaign folks believe that it is a fake impeachment hearing. I don't I think they are very real. That is why I watched it yesterday. But, I will probably send money to the Trump campaign later. I absolutely do not want any of those Democrat candidates to win. I still don't care too much for Trump but I hate the policies the Democrats are espousing.
 

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missippi roolz
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That's because for the past 40 years, the GOP has mastered the art of changing the meaning of words and using them as a propaganda tool, while ironically just showing the people that are paying attention that it's just them projecting their own shittiness.

"Fake" has a true, defined meaning. #fakenews was an actual thing. It was news that was made up out of nowhere with literally as much as evidence as mid 90's satirical tabloids talking about proof of alien life and propagated through social media by foreign actors. "News" claiming that Hillary Clinton had funded an assassination attempt on Donald Trump - that is "fake news".

A lot of you have co-opted it to mean "anything that goes against the reality I have fabricated based on one single man's (who is literally incapable of actually telling the truth) words"

I assure you, the impeachment hearings are indeed real. Perhaps they may be subjectively "illegitimate" (except by all technicality, not really, since impeachment doesn't have to be based off of some legally defined criminal act), but they are most certainly a real thing.

The most "fake" thing that is happening in national politics right now is every single molecule of Donald Trump's entire existence.

It truly sucks that the complete and utter, blatantly obvious, all but impossibly false horseshit that has come out of his mouth has worked on people like yourself, Eagle. It really is disheartening that even reasonable people in this country, regardless of political stance; people that up until this point have proudly stood so staunchly behind the ol' phrase "I can tell a politician is lying because their lips are moving"; can have the wool pulled over their eyes by the most obvious, lying conman of the past 40 years in the United States. Especially when the best-case scenario is that that obvious conman has unconstitutionally enriched himself in a variety of ways by flagrantly abusing the office he was elected to and the worst-case outcome is potentially selling out his entire country to one or two of his country's oldest and fiercest geopolitical enemies.

I want to say it's unprecedented. But historically, there's a reason cults have the ability to be so successful, and it's never the critical thinkers that fall for it. But I suppose it's to be expected by the same people that also tend to put faith before science while somehow not even remotely seeing the irony of using the phrase "feels before reals".
 

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That's because for the past 40 years, the GOP has mastered the art of changing the meaning of words and using them as a propaganda tool, while ironically just showing the people that are paying attention that it's just them projecting their own shittiness.

"Fake" has a true, defined meaning. #fakenews was an actual thing. It was news that was made up out of nowhere with literally as much as evidence as mid 90's satirical tabloids talking about proof of alien life and propagated through social media by foreign actors. "News" claiming that Hillary Clinton had funded an assassination attempt on Donald Trump - that is "fake news".

A lot of you have co-opted it to mean "anything that goes against the reality I have fabricated based on one single man's (who is literally incapable of actually telling the truth) words"

I assure you, the impeachment hearings are indeed real. Perhaps they may be subjectively "illegitimate" (except by all technicality, not really, since impeachment doesn't have to be based off of some legally defined criminal act), but they are most certainly a real thing.

The most "fake" thing that is happening in national politics right now is every single molecule of Donald Trump's entire existence.

It truly sucks that the complete and utter, blatantly obvious, all but impossibly false horseshit that has come out of his mouth has worked on people like yourself, Eagle. It really is disheartening that even reasonable people in this country, regardless of political stance; people that up until this point have proudly stood so staunchly behind the ol' phrase "I can tell a politician is lying because their lips are moving"; can have the wool pulled over their eyes by the most obvious, lying conman of the past 40 years in the United States. Especially when the best-case scenario is that that obvious conman has unconstitutionally enriched himself in a variety of ways by flagrantly abusing the office he was elected to and the worst-case outcome is potentially selling out his entire country to one or two of his country's oldest and fiercest geopolitical enemies.

I want to say it's unprecedented. But historically, there's a reason cults have the ability to be so successful, and it's never the critical thinkers that fall for it. But I suppose it's to be expected by the same people that also tend to put faith before science while somehow not even remotely seeing the irony of using the phrase "feels before reals".

That’s why I told Mike some time back in a different thread in this section that it seems more like a cult like following. It’s kind of sad to see especially from some individuals.
 

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US Air Force (retired)
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So, I'm a member of a cult now? I don't think so. I said I didn't think the impeachment inquiry is real because its goal isn't an impeachment vote. It's goal is to influence the next election. And the biggest liar in the room is Schiff.

There is another old saying, "If you are not liberal when you are young you have no heart. If you are not a conservative when you are old you have no head." I don't like Trump. I never have. But what is the alternative? Warren? Sanders? Buttigieg? Harris? I already said I disagree with almost all of their policies. What do you really think I'm going to do. Vote against my core beliefs and vote for a left-wing liberal. I don't think so.

I've been a member of the NRA for 40 years. Do you think I'm going to vote against the second amendment? Or perhaps I should vote for more government control over our lives when I think there is already too much. None of that is going to happen. If I am a member of a cult then its the one where I swore to defend the constitution.

One of the greatest things Trump did was to nominate conservative judges to the circuit courts and the Supreme Court. Judges who do not believe the constitution is a living document that can be re-interpreted at will. I have read that his appointments has actually changed the ninth circuit court from liberal to conservative. That is great.

Haven't you ever looked at the map depicting those who vote Democrat and those who vote Republican. Democrat strongholds are the cities Rural America is the stronghold of the Republicans. The states that are solid blue (Democrat) are the ones with massive cities. California is the biggest and look at the mess its in. People urinating and defecating on the streets. Illinois is another example. One county, Cook County Chicago, basically controls their statewide elections. I have looked at a map of Illinois voting patterns. It is almost all red except for a few areas.

I was born and live in rural America and the Democrats simply do not offer a candidate or platform that I can vote for. So if you wish to call me names go ahead. Its not going to change anything.
 

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missippi roolz
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9,244 Posts
What do you really think I'm going to do
Well, beyond being able to hypothetically singlehandedly go back in time and get your party to pick literally any other non-compromised Republican candidate, I'd say stop pretending that your support of Trump is anything other than "the ends justifying the means" which on a spectrum of morality, lies real damn close to "eye for an eye".

The risk is that you're sacrificing the long-term health and strength of your entire country (not financially-speaking since that's the only thing y'all seem to be capable of caring about) by supporting and allowing someone to potentially sell the whole thing down the river while cutting off every viable ally for the short term gain of getting a few wins in the conservative corner.

The world that you and your generation fought for and thrived in is very likely going into the toilet right now under your president and it's your children and their children that get to deal with the fallout of it.

A geopolitical stage with Russia and/or China at the helm is going to be quite different than what we've been so comfortably enjoying since 1945.

I can tell you this much: if it was a Democratic president that I voted for going through this **** and blatantly lying to my face every single day, being obviously sketchy as **** hiding their finances from the public, having people close to them continuously getting charged with crimes and getting arrested, I'd be rooting for them to get their ass booted the **** out of the office in favor of the next person in line. The office doesn't have to go to the opposing party.


Its not going to change anything.
I think we're all aware.
 

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Well, beyond being able to hypothetically singlehandedly go back in time and get your party to pick literally any other non-compromised Republican candidate, I'd say stop pretending that your support of Trump is anything other than "the ends justifying the means" which on a spectrum of morality, lies real damn close to "eye for an eye".


I can tell you this much: if it was a Democratic president that I voted for going through this **** and blatantly lying to my face every single day, being obviously sketchy as **** hiding their finances from the public, having people close to them continuously getting charged with crimes and getting arrested, I'd be rooting for them to get their ass booted the **** out of the office in favor of the next person in line.



.

Right on target imo!
 

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Discussion Starter #89
And the biggest liar in the room is Schiff.
Eagles right.

Just like Trey Gowdy was when Republicans decided to shoot off investigation after investigation for the express purpose of pushing Hillary Clintons poll numbers down(See Kevin McCarthy/Hannity).

No....not political at all......:wink2:

If impeachment was a purely legal exercise this case would be over.(See Trump appointed Justice Dept official saying this exact thing).

My question is why are we so bound to a memo?(See OLC/Presidential immunity to indictment) The OLC sent out a recommendation. Trump has broken every, and will continue to break, all norms of government. Why do we have to follow something that isn't an actual law? Trump doesn't, even if it is a law. It is vital that this question("Can a sitting President be indicted?") be codified so that there is no ambiguity. It comes down to the idea of "no one is above the law" or we devolve into a Plutocracy.(See "Rollerball":1975) Trump has exposed the weakness in our system.

I find it interesting how Republicans can be so OK with dealing in the dirt when it suits their purpose but when they have to take a dose of their own medicine(See 2015 Congressional Investigation rule changes) the victimhood kicks into high gear. Their cries of aggrievment are so insanely inane it's laughable in a completely sad way along with raising the hypocrisy bar to new heights.(See Evangelical/Christian Persecution)

On a side note....One of my states Republican congressmen was re-elected to office despite the fact he had been indicted for corruption and illegal use of campaign funds. Kind of parallels Trump rise. Republicans don't seem to be so uneasy about operating in illegality.

Back to the fun....

They should know better. Maybe they've invested so much they're just too deep to let go now. When 60% of the Republican party says that Trump can break whatever law he wants you have to wonder about Socialists use of the word "Cult".....maybe Jim Jones would be more suitable. Mass induced fealty to one of the most corrupt, soulless A-holes that has walked this earth. BTW his attitude doesn't really concern me much. It's his base ineptitude. That is what keeps me up at night. It's a mystery to me because there are some very smart people in the Republican Party.

cult
[kəlt]

NOUN
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St. Olaf"
a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
"a network of Satan-worshiping cults"
synonyms:
sect · religious group · denomination · religious order · church · faith · faith community · belief · persuasion · affiliation · movement · group · body · faction · clique
a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.
"a cult of personality surrounding the leaders"

synonyms:
obsession with · fixation on · mania for · passion for · idolization of · admiration for · devotion to · worship of · veneration of · reverence for
a person or thing that is popular or fashionable, especially among a particular section of society.
"a cult film"
synonyms:
craze · fashion · fad · vogue · thing

So now Republicans are braying about how horrible and unfair this all is as they watch in horror as career federal workers with impeccable records of patriotism to this country systematically pull the proverbial curtain on the Oz machine only to expose a self dealing boob that tripped into office on the most successful con in history. Almost made for television. Trump loves to claim he's the best at everything.

In this case I agree with him. He pulled off the greatest con in History.

John
 

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US Air Force (retired)
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I think some of you have some strange ideas. But the opposite is also probably true. I didn't vote for Trump in the primary. I wanted Rubio and when he dropped out I voted for Cruz. A lot of us did. But Trump won. In the general election that left Clinton and Trump. I wasn't about to vote for Clinton.

If Mike Pence was running (our current VP) I'd vote for him over Trump in a heartbeat. I have voted for him several times before when he was our Representative in Congress and when he was our Governor. He is really a great guy... but he isn't running. The election is going to be Trump against a far-left wing Democrat. Even the Democrats don't think they can win with their current slate of candidates. They are looking to get other, more moderate Democrats in the race. Bloomberg just registered in his first state.

The irony of this doesn't escape me. As you can see in this thread Democrats rail against the rich and they are hoping the 9th richest man in the United States can save them.

One comment seemed to infer that I should want Trump impeached so that I could vote for Pence. I'm assuming he meant impeached and convicted. A vote for impeachment does nothing but start the trial in the Senate. I watched the Democrat's star witnesses, Kent and Taylor, and there wasn't anything there. Neither had ever met Trump. Neither were on the phone call. Taylor testified that he had met with President Zelensky (Ukrainian President) several times. On at least three occasions Zelensky told him he was very happy with the call and felt no pressure to do anything. He did not know that the DoD had held up certification until then causing military aid to be on hold. DoD certified Ukraine in July. I do not know if it was before or after the July 25th phone call.

Ambassador Yovanovitch is testifying today. Her firing is what got all of the career civil servants (Hill, Kent, Taylor upset). They think she was railroaded but that doesn't really matter. She serves at the will of the President and represents the President to foreign governments. He can replace any time he wants. We will have to see what she says. It could be interesting.

Note: I have read the July 25th transcript. I have read Hill's testimony. I watched Kent and Taylor testify. My information is not second hand and filtered by the media. It was very obvious from the beginning of Kent and Taylor's testimony they didn't like Trump. They were career civil servants and they thought they new better than the person in charge. True or not he was their boss. During my military career I have met DoD civil servants who were exactly the same way.

I served under five presidents. Johnson and Nixon when I was enlisted and Reagan, Bush and Clinton when I was an officer. I went to college in between. My interaction with civil servants was between my operational assignments when I was working research and development. Most were great but a few were just plain obstacles.
 

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missippi roolz
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Note: I have read the July 25th transcript. I have read Hill's testimony. I watched Kent and Taylor testify. My information is not second hand and filtered by the media. It was very obvious from the beginning of Kent and Taylor's testimony they didn't like Trump. They were career civil servants and they thought they new better than the person in charge. True or not he was their boss. During my military career I have met DoD civil servants who were exactly the same way.
This is where the curent Republican and Democrat mindsets seem to diverge and it's becoming more and more obvious every day.

Even just viewing this individual quoted statement in a vacuum without the context of your military career, run-like-a-business-centered philosophy, and previous posts on this forum, it's quite obvious that you hold established hierarchy in a higher regard than putting people in positions that they're qualified for.

Not once does it occur to you that maybe "it's obvious...they didn't like Trump" because as people that are "career civil servants" they actually have the experience, qualifications, and understanding of what a successful politician should be doing, and they're well-versed enough to see that Trump ain't it. In fact, maybe they're qualified enough to see that Trump is actually actively undermining the foundations of how our government was intended to operate and our place in the geopolitical landscape.

You honestly can't see why it might get under the skin of someone that actually has proven they care about their country when some d-list celebrity faux-billionaire whose entire family history has revolved around enriching themselves at the expense of every single person around them starts calling the shots of the [currently] strongest country on the planet? Isolating us from long-time allies and repeatedly praising literally every modern authoritarian dictator in existence? You can't understand the disdain? That's ****ing incredible man!

Some people like you might think of someone like me as a coward as I would never join the military unless there was a true threat on domestic soil. The thing is, I am completely incapable of unquestionably following the directions of someone just because they're in a "higher rung" on the hierarchical ladder than me. If something doesn't feel right to me, I question it: whether 18 years of going to church every Sunday or my father threatening to send me to military school for not making all A's when I was a kid or a manager telling me to do something without my feedback, I will always push back. I sure as **** ain't going to send myself or support sending others to a war that I don't agree with. I don't do anything without logic and reason dictating to me that a decision makes sense.

And I sure as **** don't respect people just because they have more presumed power or authority than me. I respect people that have proven to me that they deserve it.
 

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US Air Force (retired)
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This is where the curent Republican and Democrat mindsets seem to diverge and it's becoming more and more obvious every day.

Even just viewing this individual quoted statement in a vacuum without the context of your military career, run-like-a-business-centered philosophy, and previous posts on this forum, it's quite obvious that you hold established hierarchy in a higher regard than putting people in positions that they're qualified for.
Some of my comments may surprise you. First, I doubt that I have ever said Trump was qualified. I don't think he is. But that is not an impeachable offense. That said I really like his judiciary nominations and some other things that he has done. I absolutely hate his twitter account and the crap he says on it.

You obviously know very little about the military. Its about far more than following orders. Yes, we have that but its mostly about training, training someone to be the best they can. After basic training I went through a 7 month technical school. My job was to repair the avionics systems on aircraft. After tech school in my first assignment I went through 6 months of on-the-job training before I was allowed to work on my own. Even then senior enlisted are expected to check and sign off on critical failures. We do not want aircraft crashing or important weapons failing in combat. Each aircraft is different so we had some OJT every time we were assigned to a new duty station. When I made SSgt I was the one doing a lot of the OJT and I was the one working on critical systems.

Yes, we had to follow orders such as fix this aircraft but we had to let our training tell us how. The aircraft I worked on were vastly different: T-37s, T-38s, an old C-47, F-4Ds, RF-4Cs, B-52s and KC-135s. It was my experience on the flight line and my degree in accounting that got me my first officer assignment in research and development on the KC-135R. I am very proud that that aircraft is still flying today and completing missions. Yes I followed orders but I went to a lot of meetings with the contractor where I was the one talking technical specifications and cost.

Back to months of training for my Minuteman II assignment. OJT again, then crew commander. After two years, at the rank of Captain I became flight commander. The biggest part of my job was making sure crews followed their training. By then I had aircraft experience, missile experience and R&D experience. I was sent to HQ Strategic Air Command to help write requirements for future weapon systems. Yes, we follow orders but training and experience is where the orders are coming from. I absolutely respected all of my supervisors and commanders.

After I retired I went to work as a cost accountant. I did not find the same level of dedication or professionalism that I saw in the Air Force. When I became CFO of the company it was something I had to adapt to but I still considered training extremely important. That is probably why I became a college professor teaching accounting. Since I was still working full-time most of my classes were at night until I retired from the company. I then taught a lot of day classes. I retired from teaching only last December.
 

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missippi roolz
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They were career civil servants and they thought they new better than the person in charge. True or not he was their boss.
Who is "the person in charge" you're referring to here?

Nothing that you wrote above proves that following the orders of the person above you is always the right decision. It just shows that you primarily interacted with people that you respected, whether that was coincidental or because you tend to respect your superiors by default isn't really clear. Not to mention, your superiors in those cases have to answer to someone.. Trump, at least in his mind (and unfortunately being proven daily in application), doesn't have to answer to anyone.

Most military officers I know and interact with I respect, because they're not complete morons. That doesn't mean that I would follow their directions without question.

Trump has no military background...he's also a moron.
 

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7.62x39 CO2 Cannon
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Watching this impeachment hearing, it is obvious, the democrats have nothing impeachable on Trump.

This is just a dog and pony show orchestrated to make it seem Trump broke a law and did something illegal to sway voters away from him.

I'm 100% positive that anyone who isn't a left-winger or just a die-hard democrat, will see right through this.

I feel this will backfire on Dems and sway even more voters to the right for Trump.

I've got lifelong Dems in my family now that voted Obama / Biden who told me after all the BS, they're casting their vote for Trump.

Now what should be happening is Biden and his son should be the ones before hearings for corruption via Burisma, etc.

Adam Schiff was pounding the gavel when that was brought up though. :shiftyeyes:
 

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US Air Force (retired)
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Trump has no military background...he's also a moron.
I agree with this. He is also a draft dodger. Wasn't it bone spurs? In my mind that one thing labels him as a coward, unfit to be President. But none of that is impeachable.

I have repeatedly said I do not like him. Didn't you believe me? I have repeatedly said the only other option was Clinton. Voting for her would mean I was voting against a lot of my own core beliefs. Voting for her would mean that policies I absolutely oppose would be enacted. Hell, if you can't understand that you can't understand anything. I was left with no other choice. I did not want Clinton elected.

P.S. With your attitude it is probably a good thing you didn't join the military. Unless training changed your attitude you might have ended up in a courts martial. Depending on the offense maybe even in prison. But things like that are reviewed by superior officers.

I was once submitted for a courts martial when I was a SSgt by a SMSgt. Because of speeding tickets on base I had been ordered to never drive my car on the flight line again. I was to ride in the flight line bus. Then I was assigned emergency work orders -- assigned to work problems that had an immediate impact on our mission. One day the base commander's (Colonel's) plane broke. I had worked that type of problem before. I had the test equipment and spare parts ready to go and I called for a ride. No one showed up. I called again. Nothing. I put the parts and equipment in the trunk of my car and drove to the plane. I fixed the plane and it took off on time. The SMSgt submitted paperwork for breaking a direct order. A week later I was called into the Captain's office. He showed me the paperwork. He also said that the Colonel thanked him for the quick response to fix his plane. It was a successful mission. The Captain told me he was calling it a misunderstanding and the paperwork went no further.

The best NCOs and officers don't blindly follows orders. They understand the mission and how the order relates to it.

And now I sincerely hope you are done insulting the military.
 

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missippi roolz
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P.S. With your attitude it is probably a good thing you didn't join the military. Unless training changed your attitude you might have ended up in a courts martial. Depending on the offense maybe even in prison. But things like that are reviewed by superior officers.
I mean, in the hypothetical situation that I was forced to join the military due to a war like Vietnam or Iraq, I would most certainly be court martialed. Doubt I would make it far enough to be in prison for any serious amount of time.

The more realistic hypothetical response is I likely wouldn't end up in prison or court martialed because I would flee the country without question if I was being forced to participate in a war with similar goals as Iraq or Vietnam.

(A war in response to an obvious attack on the United States from a foreign actor would be a different story - so keep that in mind for nuance)

I have zero issue with Vietnam War draft dodgers. Wanting autonomy for your own existence in this world isn't cowardice to me.

I have a huge issue with Vietnam War draft dodgers that turn into war hawks and/or repeatedly criticize veterans that sacrificed everything or nearly everything in service of corporate interest and/or deceitful politicians' personal gains under the guise of "protecting the freedom of the United States of America".

I value my ability to be alive more than serving some twat looking to secure natural resources for their own benefit or preventing the spread of some failing economic model in some obscure country on the other side of the globe.

However, I also don't believe that we should yank out all of our troops from an active conflict without a long term plan in place when some previous dipshit politician sent them to fight a war based on lies. Accountability is important.

And now I sincerely hope you are done insulting the military.
What? Where did I insult the military?

I get you went through some **** when you came back because some liberal ding dongs didn't understand what the **** was actually going on or where to properly place the blame for the war you fought in, but please don't confuse my disdain for politicians that put people like you into those situations with me insulting the actual people that serve in the military or the military as a whole.

And sorry, but I'm a realist: it's just a matter of fact that someone that is comfortable following orders based on hierarchical structure is going to be the type of person to support a more authoritarian figurehead. There's a reason the data shows that the military demographic tends to lean Republican. Just as there's a similar reason why the religious tend to lean Republican (loyally following the direction from a perceived higher authority). I'm sorry if that's somehow insulting to you.

I ain't the kind of person to spit on or chastise military personnel for doing the job they're required to do, which I'm assuming is the kind of person you've pinned me for for pushing back on you or for (god forbid) me stating my observations. I'm not those people that despised you for fighting a war 40 years ago.

I'm generally willing to lay my life on the line for my beliefs; there's been no conflict since 1945 that I believe in.
 

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What? Where did I insult the military?
Sorry, my mistake. I just get the distinct impression that you think you are better than the rest of us. You, of course, have high moral standards. But the rest of us are mindless robots blindly following someone's orders.
 

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missippi roolz
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Sorry, my mistake. I just get the distinct impression that you think you are better than the rest of us. You, of course, have high moral standards. But the rest of us are mindless robots blindly following someone's orders.
And you think people like me are drones sucking up filtered liberal media trying to turn the country into a Marxist State and think all soldiers are baby killers or something.

Or more likely, mediums such as this remove the ability for the nuance of a conversation to come through properly and it's impossible to understand the entirety of someone's intent with their commentary.

Here's the gist of it: you're obviously a smart dude with a long life of experiences that shaped your view on everything up until this point. I get that. I get why you're going to be skeptical of someone on the liberal side of things when those same types of people treated you like dirt for something you didn't cause or create. I apologize for being presumptuous in assuming that that experience shaped your political stance more than other things, but you bring it up a lot so that's why I'm assuming that's the case.

I am entirely not surprised whatsoever that JohnC buys into the bullshit being peddled by the current president, which is why I don't even waste my time responding to him 99% of the time.

I am completely flabbergasted that you do, as you've shown that you put a lot of thought into your viewpoints and seek out additional information to support them.

Based on the comment above, you seem to be confident in assuming I'm way up my own ass and entirely full of ****, but somehow Trump is innocent with all the **** continuously floating around him? The dude's the most anti-American politician since the turn of the 20th Century.

I don't get it man.
 
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