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You are assigning guilt by association. I don't know if Trump is guilty or not. I have seen no hard evidence that he is. And you can add Yovanovitch's testimony to that. I watched that yesterday. I have no idea why she was there. Under questioning, she said she did not know of any crime the President might have committed.

She was transferred. She agreed that Trump had a right to transfer her. She ended up in a good job as part of the Fellowship at Georgetown University. She lost no pay. She teaches two classes per semester and she likes being there. She didn't understand Guilaini's press comments. As the Democrats asked over and over how did it make her feel? It made her feel bad. She thought it was unnecessary because all the President had to say was he had lost faith in her and she would be gone.

This is something you will probably not see in the media. iI was interesting that an investigation into Bursima and Hunter Biden had started under the Obama administration but she said it was low priority because it had been paused. Not closed out. It just wasn't being worked.

Put on hold? Not high priority? I wonder why.
 

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Here's the gist of it: you're obviously a smart dude with a long life of experiences that shaped your view on everything up until this point. I get that. I get why you're going to be skeptical of someone on the liberal side of things when those same types of people treated you like dirt for something you didn't cause or create. I apologize for being presumptuous in assuming that that experience shaped your political stance more than other things, but you bring it up a lot so that's why I'm assuming that's the case.

I am completely flabbergasted that you do, as you've shown that you put a lot of thought into your viewpoints and seek out additional information to support them.

I don't get it man.
We are of different generations. I don't know your age but I suspect that you are my children's age, maybe younger. When you say you don't get it I get a sad smile on my face. I'm not sure you are trying. Perhaps its the teacher in me. I would love for you to understand but I think you are filtering my words through your own preconceptions.

What formed my outlook on life? I was raised in rural Indiana. I have hunted and fished all my life. Mine and my wife's parents were of the "Greatest Generation." They grew up during the Great Depression and all of the men fought in WWII. A war you said you could support. They passed on a lot of their attitudes to us.

We were dirt poor. If it wasn't for credit at the local grocery we wouldn't have had food in the middle of the week. I got my first rifle when I was 14 or 15. It was a single shot .22. Not a lot but I sometimes brought home rabbit and squirrel for supper. I still own guns and will not vote for anyone who wishes to take them away.

You may have read about this in your history books. When I was in the 4th-5th grade (1959-1960) we did drills. If we saw a blinding flash of light we were to hide under our desks. Why? Light travels faster than air. The first sign of a nuclear detonation is the blinding flash of light. My hero back then was President John F. Kennedy. I also liked his brother, Bobby, a lot. But that was before Vietnam changed thing. Not for me but for the country.

Back then there were a lot of conservative Democrats. There was a saying about Southerners, "They would vote for a yellow dog before they would vote for a Republican (the party of Lincoln)" This kept the Democrat Party in the center. There are a lot of conservatives I know who used to be Democrat and are now Republican who say, "I didn't leave the Party, the Party left me."

They left the Party following the Reagan administration when the Democrats started going far left. Reagan never had a Republican majority in Congress. He formed a coalition of Republicans and Blue Dog (conservative) Democrats and they backed him. I was a strong Reagan supporter. I supported "supply-side economics" which included reduced tax rates, less government regulation, and less government spending. I still do. The one thing I want that will probably never happen is a balanced budget. I really don't know how long our government can continue spending more than it brings in before our money is worthless. This has happened in many third-world countries.

At the time our country was experiencing run-away inflation of up to 12% per year. Reagan's economic policies got that under control.

This was the time of superpowers, the United States and the Soviet Union. Partnered with the Russians we defeated the Germans in WWII. We freed the countries on our side. Russia kept theirs. Installed puppet governments and formed the Soviet Union. Russia and the Soviet Union were still expanding. This was also a time of nuclear weapons and "proxy wars." Knowing that a nuclear war would destroy us both we fought each other in third world countries. Korea and Vietnam were proxy wars. South Korea is still a democracy. We lost in Vietnam. We won every major battle but because of Pres. Johnson's mishandling we lost support for the war at home.

He micromanaged the war. I will bet that you do not know that Johnson personally selected the B-52 flight paths into North Vietnam. He never changed it but used the same one all the time. All the North Vietnamese had to do was set up their anti-aircraft weapons there. Far more of our planes were shot down than needed be. I think it was one of those that Jane Fonda was pictured on.

Johnson wouldn't let us fight in other ways. He drew a line in the sand that we were forbidden to cross that our adversary crossed at will. I was really glad to see him go.

Reagan started beefing up our military. The Soviet Union tried to keep up but eventually this forced them to come to the table and the Intermediate-range Nuclear Force (INF)was signed. It was the first time there was an agreement to reduce Nuclear Weapons.

I thought Carter was weak. He personally restricted the size of the rescue mission during the Iran Hostage Crisis. When one helicopter broke during a refueling stop they had to scrub the mission.

In 1990 I was stationed at HQ Strategic Air Command working future weapon requirements when Iraq invaded our ally Kuwait. Being in R&D I wasn't eligible for deployment. I went to assignments and got it changed back to Aircraft Maintenance. My boss was on vacation at the time. He was furious when he got back. He said we didn't spend a million dollars training you so you could go back to maintenance. He immediately got my orders cancelled.

You said you would join if the United States was attacked. We were! It was in 2001. Did you join?

That is why I am the way I am. And, I sometimes smile at the comments you make because you seem to understand only little. I look at what the left is doing today. Antifa is anything but anti-facist. They use violence to silence those that disagree with them. Its the same on college campuses. Just the other day a student who was putting up conservative posters was sprayed in the face with paint. I saw the video of the girl spraying his eyes. The left seem hell bent on silencing all opposition.

There was a saying in the old Soviet Union concerning people like that. They were considered "useful idiots."
 

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Leaks are still rampant but if this article is accurate there are still no hard facts. A couple of days ago it was big news that Holmes, an US embassy staff member in Ukraine, heard Trump talk to Sondland in Ukraine about "investigations." Democrats were excited. This was suppose to be the nail in the coffin.

The article says, "Holmes said Sondland told Trump that Zelensky “loves your ass” to which Trump responded: “So, he’s gonna do the investigation? “He’s gonna do it,” Sondland replied."

If there were more to it I'm sure the Democrats would have leaked it. The whole thing is about the election not an impeachment vote.

Again, there is nothing here. Zelensky is willing to investigate because he likes Trump. There is no Quid Pro Quo or bribery or extortion.

Note: According to Yovanovitch's sworn testimony a better way of saying it is that Zelensky is going to re-open the investigation started during the Obama administration.
 

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7.62x39 CO2 Cannon
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I am entirely not surprised whatsoever that JohnC buys into the bullshit being peddled by the current president, which is why I don't even waste my time responding to him 99% of the time.
Just like y'all buy in to EVERYTHING the alt-left-wing corporate media peddles out. :yes

For instance, like Trump's son supposedly leaked the whistle blowers name when it was actually someone else who leaked it days before to 3 different media outlets that we know of. Trump's son only retweeted the quoted media outlet that had the whistle blowers name.

I posted the tweet, the news outlets and pointed out the posted times.

Once that came out, the left-wing media outlets changed their narrative / headlines on it and continued their conspiracies. :no

Now it's somehow Trump Jr's fault because he retweeted what info was already out there in defense of the lies and attacks against his father as if they're not supposed to be able to defend themselves. :smh

But yeah, you act like EVERYTHING you read from the left-wing corporate media is the cold hard truth with no political bias and everything we reed is BS. So as I've said before, look in the mirror when you make these types of statements. You do everything you accuse us of and you are politically biased. You're not perfect, you're news source aren't always correct nor true, so get over yourself, bro.
 

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I'm looking forward to next week. I want to see Sondland's testimony. All of this he said, she said stuff seems to track back to him.
 

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This is an interesting article. Democrat Congressman Jeff Van Drew agrees that the impeachment inquiry is a sham.

"We have to understand, impeachment is something that's supposed to be exceptionally unusual. It is supposed to be bipartisan. It is supposed to be fair," Van Drew said." At the end of the day we’ll have the same president and same candidate and a failed impeachment process, and the only difference would be that the president will have been exonerated of charges."

"You know, De Tocqueville in 1853 wrote that if a nation was more and more often using...impeachment as a way of actually removing its leaders, it would show the deterioration of the nation," Van Drew said. "It is so rarely used, should be rarely used. And as I've mentioned to you before, it is something that during the hundreds of years of American history has never been successfully used."

Comparing the impeachment of a president to "more like something you would see in Europe or third-world nations," Van Drew encouraged House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to shift her focus to "real issues" for the remaining 14 working days in Congress before year's end. "So wouldn't it be wonderful at the end of this presidency, to the benefit of both political parties, but most of all, to the benefit of Americans, if we actually got some of these very important issues finished and taken care of instead? It will not happen in this toxic atmosphere," he added.

---------- Post added at 06:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 PM ----------

Another interesting article. Hunter Biden was discharged from the Navy Reserve for drug use. What a find upstanding individual.

Also, the prosecutor in Ukraine is reopening closed cases (corruption in Burisma has been sitting idle for years). The article says that State Department official George Kent testified at the first public hearing of the House impeachment inquiry last week that, “since U.S. taxpayers are wasted,” he “would love to see the Ukrainian prosecutor general’s office find who the corrupt prosecutor was that took the bribe and how much was paid.” I remember that. I was watching the hearing at the time.
 

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Hunter Biden was discharged from the Navy Reserve for drug use. What a find upstanding individual.

Also, the prosecutor in Ukraine is reopening closed cases (corruption in Burisma has been sitting idle for years)......

Holy cow that’s an pure outrage maybe Trump should slap Joe Biden in the face for that and then lock him up for his son being discharged way back when forget having a foreign power investigate him for dirt. :serious:

Crazy and very surprising timing on all of that huh..
 

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Your bias are showing again. I love the way you say "investigate for dirt."

Ambassador Yovanovitch (the ambassador to Ukraine that got fired) testified under oath that an investigation into Hunter Biden and Burisma was started during the Obama administration. And that it was a low priority because the investigation was paused. Not closed, but paused. What ever that means.

Instead of "investigate for dirt." A better way of stating it is they are looking for corruption.

You can't tell me you don't think it is strange that the son of a Vice-President who is in charge of Ukrainian policy is offered $50,000 per month to sit on the board in a job he is totally unqualified to fill. On the board of a company (Burisma) that was absolutely totally corrupt in the past. And yes, I am aware it is reported he joined the board as part of an anti-corruption campaign.

I am also aware that all of the Democrats say there is no evidence of wrong doing. I agree. But there is an appearance of wrong doing and we will not know if laws were broken unless there is an investigation. If everything is above board then there is no harm done. If not, there is.

P.S. My comment about Hunter Biden being kicked out of the Navy Reserves shows my own bias. He somehow managed to join the Navy Reserves at the age of 44. And then two years later he is kicked out for doing cocaine. To me that is worse than avoiding the draft for bone spurs.
 

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Your bias are showing again.....
One hell of a statement right there. :surprise:

I will leave it at that as I watch you continue to continue to bend and twist like that guy in the Matrix(we all know his name) dance and move around those incoming bullets as they fly at him.

That's almost the the way you bend and twist to defend this guy at all cost but hey at least your obvious is not showing when you do it. :serious: later my guy.
 

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You didn't answer my question. Don't you think it is strange that Hunter Biden is offered that job. According to today's hearing, Hunter Biden wasn't paid $50,000 per month. That is my mistake. I had read that somewhere. It was $83,000 per month. And, Burisma also transferred $3 million to American accounts tied to Hunter Biden.

And, it was brought out that the investigator that VP Biden got fired was the same investigator that raided Burisma's corrupt former president's home. That is a guy who bribed his way into Russia. VP Biden was called 3 times from Ukraine following the raid. One month after the raid VP Biden got him fired. And when making appeals, Burisma lawyers invoked Hunter Biden's name. This was all before Trump took office and any further investigation was stopped. Or rather, as Ambassador Yovanivitch said, paused.

You call it an investigation to find dirt. I call it an investigation to find corruption. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree.

P.S. We were both military. Surely you don't approve of an officer doing cocaine.
 

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Discussion Starter #113
Leaks are still rampant but if this article is accurate there are still no hard facts. A couple of days ago it was big news that Holmes, an US embassy staff member in Ukraine, heard Trump talk to Sondland in Ukraine about "investigations." Democrats were excited. This was suppose to be the nail in the coffin.

The article says, "Holmes said Sondland told Trump that Zelensky “loves your ass” to which Trump responded: “So, he’s gonna do the investigation? “He’s gonna do it,” Sondland replied."

If there were more to it I'm sure the Democrats would have leaked it. The whole thing is about the election not an impeachment vote.

Again, there is nothing here. Zelensky is willing to investigate because he likes Trump. There is no Quid Pro Quo or bribery or extortion.

Note: According to Yovanovitch's sworn testimony a better way of saying it is that Zelensky is going to re-open the investigation started during the Obama administration.
The willful ignorance you display would be laughable if this wasn't such a serious issue.

You as a military man understand the need for deterrence and not just on the battlefield but in diplomacy. Zelensky has no choice BUT to suck Trumps cock. If he doesn't his countrymen die like they already have from the delay.

Yes, Zelensky said he felt no pressure but when you look at the context wherein he is saying this you realize he HAS to say this. He can't wait for Trump to be impeached and removed from office. His country needs the aid NOW!

You can ignore the obvious but when someone directly having heard the conversation corroborates that Trump did indeed ask about the investigations then all other arguments are moot. Why didn't that phone call talk about corruption in general? Why was he only concerned with the "investigation" into the Bidens?

You also conveniently left out the other part(typical cherry picking) where, after Sondland gets off the phone, Holm asks him if Trump gives a **** about Ukraine and Sondland says that Trump does NOT give a **** about Ukraine. What he does give a **** about is the "Big Stuff" being the sham investigation into Biden and his Son to hurt him in the election much like the "Benghazi" hearing was for in regards to Hillary Clinton. There was no "seeking of the truth" in that investigation because that wasn't the aim. As Kevin McCarthy said. It was to bring down her poll numbers.

Also, the cavalier attitude that Trump has towards communication security doesn't worry you at all? How insane is it to call the president from a civilian cell phone in a foreign country who's cell phone industry is controlled by Russia? Trump refuses to follow safety protocol so pretty much every one of his phone calls are probably locked away in a vault somewhere ready to be sprung if he doesn't do Putins bidding.

It's astonishing the disrespect this president holds for processes and how government institutions work. I would have thought someone like you that has taken the oath and understands the role that processes and chain of command plays in running the best run government in the world would play but obviously party is more important to you than the constitution regardless of your "I'm a constitutionalist" claims.....BS......

John
 

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missippi roolz
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Holy **** Devin Nunes is a gaslighting piece of ****.

"These two witnesses that the Democrats brought forth today and we were denied bringing our witnesses forth"

Both Morrison and Volker were called upon by Republicans (easily verifiable by any article written on or before Nov 18, 2019).

"The rules that Democrats magically come up with on the fly"

Motherfucker, Republicans wrote these rules in 2015.

Y'all seriously fall for these shady shitbirds rewriting reality to your faces in the most blatant manner possible?

No wonder these conversations are completely useless. Trump supporters live in a completely different universe than the real world.
 

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Discussion Starter #115
Holy **** Devin Nunes is a gaslighting piece of ****.

"These two witnesses that the Democrats brought forth today and we were denied bringing our witnesses forth"

Both Morrison and Volker were called upon by Republicans (easily verifiable by any article written on or before Nov 18, 2019).

"The rules that Democrats magically come up with on the fly"

Motherfucker, Republicans wrote these rules in 2015.

Y'all seriously fall for these shady shitbirds rewriting reality to your faces in the most blatant manner possible?

No wonder these conversations are completely useless. Trump supporters live in a completely different universe than the real world.
This is a Republican epidemic that has been amplified by right wing and social media. What drives all this is dark money. As we sit, Mega donors are funneling huge amounts of money to Trumps re-election campaign along with the smear of anyone that would talk about him in a negative way. Why is that? Because they know he is for sale and will do whatever they want as long as they pay him off.

Nunes, Jordan, Gaetz….these are all elected officials whose sole purpose has been to obfuscate and muddy the waters to help the president in his criminality.

John
 

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missippi roolz
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Jim Jordan just being a dick doing nothing but trying to smear Lt. Col Vindman and catch Morrison or Volker off guard to force them to imply that Vindman is the whistleblower.

Christ what a dirtbag.
 

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I just watched 11 hours of testimony. Today they had first hand witnesses. Three were listening in on the July 25th phone. LtC Vindman testified to one thing and his boss in the afternoon corrected him. I have more than 20 pages of notes. Bottom line on all of the discussion. The witness thought some things were irregular and inappropriate but none of them thought anything was illegal.

LtC Vindman has a reputation for leaks. When asked who he talked to he said two individuals. He mentioned the name of one and said the other works in intelligence. When asked which department Schiff stopped all discussion and started talking about the whistle blower. Why?

Morrison testified that Hill (Morrison's predecessor) told him to be careful of Vindman. He leaks information. Others also came to Morrison telling him to be careful of Vindman. And during his testimony he simply said Vindman was incorrect.

They rehashed a lot of what has already been covered. Again, I did not hear anyone mention anything that is impeachable. That is probably why this is a fake inquiry. It is not being held to arrive at an impeachment vote. It is being held only to influence the voters in the next election.

Socialist: It sound like you watched some of it. How far did you get?
 

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missippi roolz
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Ideally, they should just let the lawyers do all the talking and filter the politician's questions through them.

---------- Post added at 05:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:07 PM ----------

Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989

The Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989, 5 U.S.C. 2302(b)(8)-(9), Pub.L. 101-12 as amended, is a United States federal law that protects federal whistleblowers who work for the government and report the possible existence of an activity constituting a violation of law, rules, or regulations, or mismanagement, gross waste of funds, abuse of authority or a substantial and specific danger to public health and safety. A federal agency violates the Whistleblower Protection Act if agency authorities take (or threaten to take) retaliatory personnel action against any employee or applicant because of disclosure of information by that employee or applicant.
Why would they not employ this when it seems quite apparent (at least to part of the population of the United States that don't have a sock over their face) that the government is currently led by someone that would prefer mafia-style intimidation tactics (with an actual history of business dealings with the mob) over being bound by the law? Come on now.
 

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I agree that there should be no ramifications against the whistle blower. The argument that others are making is that an accused should face his accuser. I don't know the answer to this.

I see that you really respect those that disagree with you. They obviously would agree with you if they took the sock off their heads.

I would ask what intimidation but I suspect you are talking about the rant Schiff made when Yovanovitch was testifying. I saw that. Trump tweeted that she did a bad job wherever she went while she was testifying but... she didn't have a cell phone. All cell phones have to be turned off. She never saw the tweet until Schiff pointed it out to her shouting about intimidation. My question is how can someone be intimidated by something they never heard or saw? I think the tweet was ill advised but intimidation? I don't know. I don't think so but we will see how this turns out.

I will say one thing. Schiff and his "Resist" movement are trying everything and they don't care anythng about the truth.

And I realize that a lot of people don't like Trump. And I realize that many keep saying that impeachment is a political process not a legal process but the constitution requires a crime to be committed.

---------- Post added at 08:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 PM ----------

Ideally, they should just let the lawyers do all the talking and filter the politician's questions through them.
That would take away the time they are on the camera. Why do you think they make a big speech before asking a question.
 

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Ha.. it’s a good chance imo all of the bending and twisting will stop or pull back eventually and those that are using those defense tactics will dump all of this in Rudy Giulianis lap.

He is about to become the fall guy for most of this no matter if he was just being a mouthpiece. Have to watch it all play out. With his possible knowledge of things I guess if he doesn’t get wrapped up they better hope he doesn’t start singing like Michael Cohen but it didn’t work out too well for him when he did tell what he knew.


These are some crazy times with some borderline fools still supporting and defending it. Hell and people thought there was outrage and scandal to Obama’s tan suite lol... craziness.
 
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