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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hey guys, its been awhile since I've posted in here.

Of course i am still working on my new build 4v cobra setup. But experimenting with different methods and fuels while in the process, such as E85 and some general fuel and economy experiments.

I've been experimenting currently with different fluids and mixtures of meth injection. While going over some chemistry , the thought came over me to instead inject Isopropyl alcohol (Rubbing alcohol) into the supercharger and engine instead of methanol and water.



Some of they key elements that make this a better fluid to use were.

> Increased energy within the Isopropyl mixture as compared to meth.

> Not Reactive with aluminum

>Cheap and readily available in pure mixtures

>Higher potential to cool intake boost charge

>No clogged injection nozzles.

>Contains potential adiabatic efficiency gains pre compressor



Some other advantages to Iso water injection can be seen in pre compressor applications. Adiabatic efficiency means denser air charge output from the supercharger or turbocharger , the increased efficient output and lower temperatures are beneficial to the engine and help prevent heat soak. its imperative that only enough liquid is injected so that the exhaust of the blower is only a cool dense air charge filled with vapor. Solid liquid on exit of the compressor may lower the efficiency so jetting and nozzle size are important here.

The effective octane of Isopropyl is about 125 , so if you chose to inject after the throttle body or directly into the intake charge you will see the benefits of octane increase as well which means the ability to run higher spark timing advance while in boost which allows you to run closer to MBT timing and produce more power. This helps prevent detonation and also has the added benefit of cleaning pistons ,valve seats and rings over the course of running it. Inspection of my pistons post of running alcohol and water mixtures shows the pistons are coming cleaner and cleaner over time. this will obviously help with dirtier engines in the long run and of course new engines will experience minimal carbon buildup.

I don't have a camera capable of showing pictures of this .


These are Iso and Methanol's chemical makeups

Iso : (CH3)2CHOH

Methanol: (CH4)O



Chemical Makeup of Isopropyl

http://chemicalland21.com/petrochemical/isopropanol.htm


Because iso has a larger chain of hydrogen atoms, not only does it contain more energy for a stronger flame front, it also has a higher heat capacity meaning that it can cool better and more efficiently in extreme conditions. Especially those of turbochargers , with 100,000 + rpm impeller speeds.

My testing in this configuration utilizes a centrifugal supercharger


Thus far testing has been consistent for me . Temperature differences compared to meth were negligible and there has been no significant difference in the two. But Iso does hold other advantages over meth.

Current testing , injecting from 2 psi and up , showed an increase of about 2 PSI of boost at peak. I saw up too 13 pounds of boost at 6400 RPM compared to the normal 10 pounds of boost typically seen without Iso injection.

Temperatures compared to each other indicated a 50-100* F Drop in boost charge temperatures on average.
Here is one chart log from a few passes I made at 65*F Ambient .







This is my engine and boost setup



Stock block NPI (yes npi heads ) With PI intake.

Hitech stage 2 cams.

Vortech V7-JT Prototype

VMP tuning HPX MAF 3.5"

Moates Quarter Horse tuning with Binary editor 2010/2012

Original 97 block on original 4r70w both with little over 200k original miles.

3.73 gearing on detroit tru track diff

Aluminum drive shaft

Mac O/R H pipe 2.5" into Borla pro XS

93 Octane fuel (self tuned)





The injection setup is :

Devils Own 250PSI pump

4 Gallon tank

Isopropyl mixed at 45% alcohol content

0.5 Gph Nozzle @ 80% of 200 PSI

Will be triggered Via Hobbs PSI switch at 2 PSI






Taken into consideration is that ISO has the highest BTU content of any of the above ethy,meth combinations.

Its rapid evaporation upon injection (Flash point) , vaporization makes it great for taking the heat out of the intake charge as well. Not mentioning it wont be corrosive and it mixes with water very well. Iso has more hydrogen atoms than methanol and is water soluble also , which over all increases its ability to absorb heat much better. Temperatures will be lower across the board in comparative equal mixes.

Currently i have to compensate for environmental variables that alter the intake temperatures seen. That work is not complete yet .. this also means proportioning the amount of injected fluid at those given temperatures.

Thus far results have shown better cooling ability but nothing widely significant. The advantage lies in its increased power content and its minimal reactivity with aluminum and dissimilar metals used in injection systems.


This is a look at my tunes spark tables. In this strategy this table shows peak timing possible and can only be attained when the injection system is working properly and active. This is a safety feature for cases in which the system may have failed during Wide Open Throttle operation. The multiplier here is 2.2* of timing pulled for temperatures above 140* IAT . This prevents any issues with over timing the engine without ISO present.
Checking AFR values at this proportion without injection I see around 11.7-12.0 AFR When enabling injection a value of about 11.1 -11.3 is achieved. This can be adjusted more , but since its a safe range in either condition i will allow it to remain. Since this is a centri setup , spark timing remains higher for a longer RPM period than a PD blower or turbo would since boost builds in a linier fashion.

Over the course of time it's understood that you can tune adaptively for adders when apply meth/iso injection to a setup. Most engine failures from failed injection systems are due to poor or incomplete compensatory tuning calibrations. The purpose in tuning correctly is to take advantage of fords stock calibration features to automatically compensate for changes in IAT, AFR and potential detonation. Several fail safes can be implemented in the tune that allow AFR to be maintained even at wide open throttle. I've done this by utilizing IAT vs fuel multipliers typically disabled in the tunes. Especially since Adaptive tables are based off closed loop operations and trimming from adaptive learning in closed loop is used at WOT in the load vs RPM tables.

On various ECU systems and combinations , especially Mega Squirt , you can utilize the ability of native wide-band detection , which increases the safety and viability of injection systems in the case of failures. In these cases I'm not using iso/meth/water as a fuel , but as a coolant to decrease temperatures of the compressor without restrictions of an inter-cooler, and also changing the properties of the compressor itself with a solid liquid. This makes it for the better, and is not a trick to fix improper setups , its simple a more efficient way of inducing cooling and increased efficiency from a component that's dependent on atmospheric conditions surrounding it outside of human control.

We are essentially creating a more optimal environment for component.

The safety of these systems requires a tuner to be clever , it requires the tuner to use technique, it involves more than spotting the right number out on the wide band and checking for knock. You must learn to be dynamic with the calibration and take advantage of the features implemented in the ecu system itself.

Since this is a stock block and i saw an increase of 3 PSI boost netting 13 PSI at WOT , obviously I had to trim back some since the engine would not likely live long at that boost with such miles on it. But that efficiency is a testament in itself to the potential of the setup with hardware capable of taking the added power.






This video clip is just some sound of the car. shifts at 2900 RPM

 
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Rollin' 18/ pushin' 2
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Wow, We are gonna have to start calling you Mr White like from breaking bad.

That is some impressive work.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
YEAH SCIENCE BITCH lmao ...

Thanks . more will be updated in this thread as i gather more data in different environments. Its been interesting to work with this stuff and not to mention fun.
 

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SleeperStang
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Hey buddy nice seeing you back here again! Great work il be interested in this here shortly after my blower install.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Heck yeah , glad to be back . been on the facebook groups a lot but the forums are just better.
 

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SleeperStang
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Weren't you working on getting a 4v back in that thing?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Yup still am . just cash flow tends to be the issue. i have most of my parts except the main internals and some odds and ends. once i get that then we will be on the road.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Made some updates regarding tuning .
 

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Pretty sweet experimentation going on here! I've got a couple questions, though. (Coming from an engineer who has used water/meth on my setup for 5+ years now).

You talk about the heat capacity of the alcohol vs the methanol. Yes, the alcohol has about a 25% higher value than methanol, but what about the water, that is even 56% higher than the alcohol? If cooling is the goal, why not just spray more water? It's pretty much inert through the combustion process, and you really have to spray a LOT to quench the flame and reduce power (been there, done that first hand).

The second question I have is regarding your comment you made about increasing the octane via the alcohol. Does it really increase it that much considering the low volume flow rate? Consider a 4.6 at 5000 rpm at 1 bar of boost and a 12:1 AFR. If my math is correct, that comes out to a fuel flow rate of about 141 kilograms / hour. Now let's say I'm spraying a very high flow rate of water meth/alcohol mix at 14 gallons / hour with a 50/50 mix (by mass). Again, if my math checks out, that's about 21 kilograms / hour of alcohol. So yes, it's 125 octane, but being that it's only 13% of the total fuel mix (even less at higher rpm since its flow rate is fixed), does it really add that much octane? I forget how the effective octane of two fuels is calculated, so maybe it's more than I think.

Hope you see this and get to reply. Love talking this stuff.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Pretty sweet experimentation going on here! I've got a couple questions, though. (Coming from an engineer who has used water/meth on my setup for 5+ years now).

You talk about the heat capacity of the alcohol vs the methanol. Yes, the alcohol has about a 25% higher value than methanol, but what about the water, that is even 56% higher than the alcohol? If cooling is the goal, why not just spray more water? It's pretty much inert through the combustion process, and you really have to spray a LOT to quench the flame and reduce power (been there, done that first hand).

The second question I have is regarding your comment you made about increasing the octane via the alcohol. Does it really increase it that much considering the low volume flow rate? Consider a 4.6 at 5000 rpm at 1 bar of boost and a 12:1 AFR. If my math is correct, that comes out to a fuel flow rate of about 141 kilograms / hour. Now let's say I'm spraying a very high flow rate of water meth/alcohol mix at 14 gallons / hour with a 50/50 mix (by mass). Again, if my math checks out, that's about 21 kilograms / hour of alcohol. So yes, it's 125 octane, but being that it's only 13% of the total fuel mix (even less at higher rpm since its flow rate is fixed), does it really add that much octane? I forget how the effective octane of two fuels is calculated, so maybe it's more than I think.

Hope you see this and get to reply. Love talking this stuff.
Thats a very good point that you make there and something I also considered as well. What i noticed between the water and alcohol mixtures was the changes in how rapidly the mix would vaporize . water tended to stay afloat a bit longer compared to iso which evaporates rapidly . I did this with the MAF in consideration since its a blow through platform.

The second portion of this testing will also have injection directly into each cylinder. How much this will effect , true octane in the mixture i have no idea or ways to test. Spark hook test would probably be the only way i could determine a gain from it. Injecting directly will be more so for cooling purposes since i will be using this at cruise also as a fuel offset.
That is something i am working on currently and will update the thread more on later.

We are attempting right now to increase over all fuel economy with a straight water alcohol mix burn , then also a water burn alone. Which this has been done before. just curious of places that we could potentially improve on it and also implement a system that automatically compensates for the conditions.

I'm a tinkerer lol, so i'm doing a bunch of things at once just for the heck of it. since i saw little experimentation on it i figured why not give it a shot.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Its been a long time , but ill be updating this thread with new information !! Photobucket broke the internet
 
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