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Discussion Starter #1
Alright everyone im back once again lol Really wanting some opinions on the Livernois stage 3 heads, as of right now im going for a NA build but really am wanting to build the motor so later on I can change to FI w/ KB supercharger (way down road) without changing everything out. Is it possible to send my heads in to livernois and have them build them to stage 3 specs? or would it be cheaper to just buy the stage 3 heads? What gains has anyone seen off of these with a solid stage 3 comp cam? One last thing do they seem overpriced or is it just me?
 

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You'll need to join this forum if not already a member but it is well worth the read:

WWW.S197FORUM.COM

After reading it, my opinion of Livernois should be fairly clear. If I were you I would contact RGR, Fox Lake or TEA.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Frpp intake
Steeds udp
K&n cai
Sct 91 race tune
Arh long tubes
Planning on doing cams same time as heads
 

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Just slapping big heads on there doesn't always help. Like most mods it will move your power curve up in the RPM's and it will feel like you've lost some down low. The key to good flowing heads is maintaining the highest possible velocity without being a restriction. Sheer volume is not always the factor in which you want to concern yourself with when motor building. Just like putting too big of an exhaust on there will hinder performance, having to large of a head on there will also. Bigger is not always better. Get the right heads for your application. We can't tell you which ones would be the best without really knowing what the rest of your motor buil and goals are. And then, they are going to be very few, who would be able to tell you the best heads to get. Engine building is a science, not just bolting parts up. You have to really know what you are doing to get it right.

And unless you are pretty versed in auto mechanics I would try and have someone local build your heads. Maybe you can get the ported heads from somewhere but either assemble them yourself or have it done locally. That way if there are any issues you have all the facilities nearby to resolve any issues.
 

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I have the Stage 3 heads and they are bad ass. The oversize valves are the trick but I wouldn't pay the $$$ for them unless you are going to put down big power - 600+ to the wheels. Now, it took Livernois 3x to send me a good set but they finally did and I'm very happy with them. The Livernois/FRPP Stage 3 heads match up great with the Comp 127-450 cams if you have a blower. I don't know that they are worth the cash if you are NA. Send your own heads in - they have issues with their cores.

S197Forum.com is worthless.
 

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I have the Stage 3 heads and they are bad ass. The oversize valves are the trick but I wouldn't pay the $$$ for them unless you are going to put down big power - 600+ to the wheels. Now, it took Livernois 3x to send me a good set but they finally did and I'm very happy with them. The Livernois/FRPP Stage 3 heads match up great with the Comp 127-450 cams if you have a blower. I don't know that they are worth the cash if you are NA. Send your own heads in - they have issues with their cores.

S197Forum.com is worthless.
What was wrong with the first two sets they sent you?
 

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I have the Stage 3 heads and they are bad ass. The oversize valves are the trick but I wouldn't pay the $$$ for them unless you are going to put down big power - 600+ to the wheels. Now, it took Livernois 3x to send me a good set but they finally did and I'm very happy with them. The Livernois/FRPP Stage 3 heads match up great with the Comp 127-450 cams if you have a blower. I don't know that they are worth the cash if you are NA. Send your own heads in - they have issues with their cores.

S197Forum.com is worthless.
Forum preferences aside, did you read the thread in the link I posted? You do have a Whipple correct? It might make for a very interesting read for you especially.

Here are just a few of the things you would see in that thread. The first is a stock gasket which all intakes reuse regardless of manifold manufacturer. See the discoloring circled in red? Those are areas exposed to the air/fuel charge. See how it is not creating a seal?

The second picture is an overlay of the stock gasket on the Livernois CNC'd Stage III cylinder head. It has been cut to deep on the long axis which inturn reduces the gaskets seating surface and ability to seal. The air/fuel charge is allowed to run through the machined gasket grove in the manifold just looking for the weakest spot. Now add in the "slop" factor and it takes just the slightest shift when seating the manifold and you have no seal at all.

Then last picture is of my second set of Livernois Stage III heads (which they took upon themselves to repalce my set of new thread style heads with the old ones again). Im sure you will agree that the oil built up on the back of that intake valve sure does not look good.

On another note...I know you had been looking into something similar to the last pic quite some time ago. Not sure if you ever got an answer but I drilled and tapped both sides of the Whipple mounting plate to accept meth nozzles during one of the many occasions it has been in pieces. I still have not installed it but this location seems to be ideal to get a good even mix and ensure it actually makes it to the combustion chamber instead of evaporating on the rotors.
 

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That is cutting it close with the gasket surfaces. Though typically gaskets would cut it close after a stage 3 port job, it shouldn't have resulted in that. I've seen where guys use a little high quality sealer in the slim areas to avoid that ****.

To the OP, stage 3 cams are going to require some rear end gear. The positive displacement blower helps, but low speed maneuvering like in a tight parking lot with all that cam is where a set of 4.10's help too. When I did my stoker build, I opened up the exhaust ports a bit to compensate for the single valve on that side and left the intake side alone. I have a Whipple with stage 2 cams and it's still very street-able, no loss of bottom end, but required a little gear for low speed maneuvering.

Another thing to consider is once you get into the kind of power you are looking at, you'll have a host of other drivetrain weak points to consider.
 

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That is cutting it close with the gasket surfaces. Though typically gaskets would cut it close after a stage 3 port job, it shouldn't have resulted in that. I've seen where guys use a little high quality sealer in the slim areas to avoid that ****.

To the OP, stage 3 cams are going to require some rear end gear. The positive displacement blower helps, but low speed maneuvering like in a tight parking lot with all that cam is where a set of 4.10's help too. When I did my stoker build, I opened up the exhaust ports a bit to compensate for the single valve on that side and left the intake side alone. I have a Whipple with stage 2 cams and it's still very street-able, no loss of bottom end, but required a little gear for low speed maneuvering.

Another thing to consider is once you get into the kind of power you are looking at, you'll have a host of other drivetrain weak points to consider.

Tony, haven't seen you on here in a while. Where have you been hiding?

Also, like I said before, the slower velocity at low RPM's might make it even tougher to tool around at light throttle. If you are going to go extreme, wait till you have your S/C. If you are looking at a long time frame I would do a mild build. One that would be streetable while N/A, and one that will give you some extra punch after you get your Kenny Bell. That is the way I am doing it. I'm going to do heads sometime, but after I finish the chassis/suspension (K-member, A-arms, extreme antiroll bar) and drivetrain (9", traction lock). I had to drive around for a couple of years N/A before I was able to get my Whipple. If you are looking at a short time frame for the KB then I would go ahead and do heads now.
 

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I guess I just kind of drifted away from the boards for no apparent reason. I'm busy as a mechanic all week, do a lot a brewing, been busy with building a recording studio in my basement and the usual stuff. I still get on here on and off. I'm pulling my rear axle out today for a rebuild. Gonna lay a dummy shaft through it, weld the tubes to the housing, set of 3.73's, Eaton posi and a girdle. I'll sand and paint it too. Just yanking it out today and will do the work on Wednesday.

Merry Christmas!
 

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I guess I just kind of drifted away from the boards for no apparent reason. I'm busy as a mechanic all week, do a lot a brewing, been busy with building a recording studio in my basement and the usual stuff. I still get on here on and off. I'm pulling my rear axle out today for a rebuild. Gonna lay a dummy shaft through it, weld the tubes to the housing, set of 3.73's, Eaton posi and a girdle. I'll sand and paint it too. Just yanking it out today and will do the work on Wednesday.

Merry Christmas!
Nice. I'm going to go with a new rear end soon. Good to see you're still around.

Merry Christmas.
 

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That is cutting it close with the gasket surfaces. Though typically gaskets would cut it close after a stage 3 port job, it shouldn't have resulted in that. I've seen where guys use a little high quality sealer in the slim areas to avoid that ****.
No production cylinder head should cut deep enough that it protrudes into the machined gasket groove. This means the manufacturer expects zero tolerance stacking from other parts manufacturers which will be used in every single imaginable combination. Even if you put RTV or another seal maker in the slim areas you still run the risk of allowing the air/fuel charge into the groove and working around it. I had several other Stage III heads measured and none went past 2.5xx". There is absolutely no reason since the limiting factor anyway is the smallest choke point which at this point becomes the manifold. Since everyone reuses the OEM gasket...see where this goes? In effect it creates a tumble port.

Only reason I could see for it is if you are doing a max effort custom build and want the most volume possible in the port or you are just flow bench racing to get high numbers for advertisement.
 

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Are you high!?

I wouldn't say it was worthless. There is a lot of knowledge over there, but there are a few penis heads too. I'm a member but rarely hang out in there.
 

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No production cylinder head should cut deep enough that it protrudes into the machined gasket groove. This means the manufacturer expects zero tolerance stacking from other parts manufacturers which will be used in every single imaginable combination. Even if you put RTV or another seal maker in the slim areas you still run the risk of allowing the air/fuel charge into the groove and working around it. I had several other Stage III heads measured and none went past 2.5xx". There is absolutely no reason since the limiting factor anyway is the smallest choke point which at this point becomes the manifold. Since everyone reuses the OEM gasket...see where this goes? In effect it creates a tumble port.

Only reason I could see for it is if you are doing a max effort custom build and want the most volume possible in the port or you are just flow bench racing to get high numbers for advertisement.
I agree, no cylinder head should be machined to the point where the gasket can be compromised. I didn't want you to assume I meant that was normal. As far as ''high quality sealer'', one of our mechanics had a similar situation and used case sealer that was typically used on 2-stroke engine case seams which worked without a hitch. I've used anaerobic sealer (gasket eliminator) often referred to as ''grape jelly'' with some success, but never on a modular Ford o-ring type intake gasket.

One thing's for sure, when you deviate from OEM, more times than not some sort of fitment problem is bound to arise. That head you show in the pic is unacceptable.
 

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Cutting to the chase:

I would not run Livernois on my car. Too many problems, be it machining tolerances pushed too far or using a hodge-podge of bronze and iron valve guides, or the overall lack of customer support when something does go pear-shaped.

Use RGR instead, or any other reputable head porter who stands behind their work.

S197 is full of "this thread isn't tech" tool-bags, but the most hardcore and knowledgeable guys also hang out on there, so it is a mixed-bag.

Just calling it as I see it. Your opinions may vary.
 

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No argument here on Livernois quality. They don't seem to have a quality control department at all. I didn't know that before I bought my heads from them.

I kept my original heads so just ordered two Stage 3 heads from them. The driver's side head was fine. The passenger's side head had a spark plug hole blown out of it. They sent me another cylinder head and this time one of the cam towers was bent. Finally, I gave up on that and sent them my original heads and they turned those into Stage 3 heads and all was well. Been over 5000 miles of street driving and too many track passes to count so I may be a lucky one but the engine has been flawless so far. I know it can go at any moment but hasn't yet. No one really knows the percentage of failures they have (except them).

They paid all freight, fees etc for all the shipping I had to do including paying for shipping my original heads to them.


So, the moral of my story is yes, Livernois quality sucks but I also am trapping at 110 mph in the 1/8th in a 3860 lb sorta daily driver car with a set of their heads. ...but I would probably check out RGR next time.

I must correct myself on my S197Forum comment. The forum is fine as are most users. The mods and resident "geniuses" there are... let's just say "special". Just my $.02. If I need to know which color dice to hang from my mirror I'll shoot one of them a message. After I search for it first.
 

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Hey, no I did not look at the thread but thanks for the pics. I was looking into a meth install on my stock motor but am not doing that with the new motor. I am looking at spraying it but still thinking about that. At the time, Whipple suggested spraying meth between the throttle body and the back of the blower.

I was aware of the close tolerances on the Livernois heads after I already ordered mine. I did the gasket check and it was close but mine don't look near as bad as your pics or others I have seen. I don't have any pics of mine but did a check before I installed them.


Forum preferences aside, did you read the thread in the link I posted? You do have a Whipple correct? It might make for a very interesting read for you especially.

Here are just a few of the things you would see in that thread. The first is a stock gasket which all intakes reuse regardless of manifold manufacturer. See the discoloring circled in red? Those are areas exposed to the air/fuel charge. See how it is not creating a seal?

The second picture is an overlay of the stock gasket on the Livernois CNC'd Stage III cylinder head. It has been cut to deep on the long axis which inturn reduces the gaskets seating surface and ability to seal. The air/fuel charge is allowed to run through the machined gasket grove in the manifold just looking for the weakest spot. Now add in the "slop" factor and it takes just the slightest shift when seating the manifold and you have no seal at all.

Then last picture is of my second set of Livernois Stage III heads (which they took upon themselves to repalce my set of new thread style heads with the old ones again). Im sure you will agree that the oil built up on the back of that intake valve sure does not look good.

On another note...I know you had been looking into something similar to the last pic quite some time ago. Not sure if you ever got an answer but I drilled and tapped both sides of the Whipple mounting plate to accept meth nozzles during one of the many occasions it has been in pieces. I still have not installed it but this location seems to be ideal to get a good even mix and ensure it actually makes it to the combustion chamber instead of evaporating on the rotors.
 

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Too true on the "search it first comment" LOL

Sent from my SCH-I510 using AutoGuide.Com Free App
 
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