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First off, I just read the "attention 5.0 guys" sticky. I'm not sure if that applies to me or not. This is a tech thread, But, it didn't come out of a mustang and isn't going in a Mustang, so may be.

Just a little back ground on myself. I've been building and modifying cars for 25 years. I've owned and built all of the American big 3. I'm not a brand hater, if it's American and V-8 I'm good with it.

This project is not a Mustang, but, I know that you guys have the knowledge to help me so i hope you will.

What I have is a non-HO 5.0 out of an 87 Lincoln town car. I'm going to put it and the AOD in my 55 ford customline 2 door sedan.

I found out while searching the internet that this thing is putting out a very sad 150 H.P.. Although I have no plans of racing or anything I thought now would be the time to remedy this problem while its on the engine stand.

This is a budget minded build, the engine has 111,000 miles I am removing the fuel injector and going with Holley 600 cfm carburator.


Questions;

1 I'm wanting to run a Comp cams Thumpr or an F-303 cam can I use the stock roller lifters with either?

2 Heads, i know about the GT40 and GT40P heads is there another factory head option?

3 Are the factory Mustang short headers a good idea? What years?

4 I've never installed or worked with a Ford AOD trans. Can I run a small stall converter? 2500 or less? How does the Lock up in the converter work ? electric?

Any other budget power upgrade suggestions would be much appreciated.
 

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I would personally pick up an HO motor. They have forged internals and will run out 200-300 thousand miles. If you go fuel injected you’re looking at 225 hp 300 lb/ft stock to the crank. The stock roller lifters should be fine, I run stock roller lifters on a Trickflow Stage II cam. If you can pick up a set of aluminum heads that is the way to go. You can grab a pair of stainless shorties pretty cheap. I got a pair about 5 years ago off Ebay $110 and they still look new. The P heads have a different sparkplug angle I believe so there are headers specific for that head.

With a non HO building block and P heads I wouldn’t expect you to make much more than 250-260 to the crank. In comparison I have a stock HO shortblock with a Trickflow top end kit and made 302 hp 328 lb/ft to the tires. That works out to about 360 hp /390 lb/ft to the crank.

I would search around in CL.
 

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The stock manifolds are actually better than the others on the lincoln believe it or not but I dont think they line up with your current mid pipe.

You have a LoPo 5.0, it might have a roller cam but it uses flat tappets if Im not mistaken. The stock compression ratio on those cars is 8.5:1. The throttle body is smaller than an ho too and if youre looking to use the long block you will have to find a mustang front cover and ac compressor (if youre going with ac) if you drop this in a mustang. Also the town car aod has a different governor than the mustang so it will shift at 4200 rpms max in stock form.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I would personally pick up an HO motor. They have forged internals and will run out 200-300 thousand miles. If you go fuel injected you’re looking at 225 hp 300 lb/ft stock to the crank. The stock roller lifters should be fine, I run stock roller lifters on a Trickflow Stage II cam. If you can pick up a set of aluminum heads that is the way to go. You can grab a pair of stainless shorties pretty cheap. I got a pair about 5 years ago off Ebay $110 and they still look new. The P heads have a different sparkplug angle I believe so there are headers specific for that head.

With a non HO building block and P heads I wouldn’t expect you to make much more than 250-260 to the crank. In comparison I have a stock HO shortblock with a Trickflow top end kit and made 302 hp 328 lb/ft to the tires. That works out to about 360 hp /390 lb/ft to the crank.

I would search around in CL.


i agree on the H.O., I picked this car up for $200 and drove it home. I thought it was an H.O, it has an H.O. plate on top of the upper plenum, but, its backwards. the throttle body is next to the master cylinder. Now that i have this engine out, I see evidence of tampering. New gaskets all over. Are there numbers on the block that will tell me what it is? thanks for the spark plug angle info, didn't know that.

---------- Post added at 06:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:43 PM ----------

The stock manifolds are actually better than the others on the lincoln believe it or not but I dont think they line up with your current mid pipe.

You have a LoPo 5.0, it might have a roller cam but it uses flat tappets if Im not mistaken. The stock compression ratio on those cars is 8.5:1. The throttle body is smaller than an ho too and if youre looking to use the long block you will have to find a mustang front cover and ac compressor (if youre going with ac) if you drop this in a mustang. Also the town car aod has a different governor than the mustang so it will shift at 4200 rpms max in stock form.
thanks for the info, that shift point shouldn't be an issue in my application.
 

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No panther car (crown vic, grand marquis and lincoln town car) ever had an ho motor. The thunderbird, mustang and mark 7 all had an optional 5.0 ho and I think the thunderbird had the throttle body facing the other way. Though that is a moot point since the ho intake can be flipped.
 

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...non-HO 5.0... ...AOD... ...55 ford customline 2 door sedan.

...budget minded build... ...going with Holley 600 cfm carburator.


Questions;

1 I'm wanting to run a Comp cams Thumpr or an F-303 cam can I use the stock roller lifters with either?

2 Heads, i know about the GT40 and GT40P heads is there another factory head option?

3 Are the factory Mustang short headers a good idea? What years?

4 I've never installed or worked with a Ford AOD trans. Can I run a small stall converter? 2500 or less? How does the Lock up in the converter work ? electric?

Any other budget power upgrade suggestions would be much appreciated.
Answers:

1. I would not use the stock rollers with either, that's my preference. I always pair a new cam with new lifters. As for the cam choices, that's going to be dependent on your heads, intake, and headers. The cam is the brain of the engine and the most critical part of a build IMO. I'm going to shoot down the F cam without even thinking much about it just because it's a letter cam that hasn't been relevant since the 90s. Going by the two options you listed, you're more concerned about having a lopey idle sound than having a good performing cam. With that in mind, I will revisit this a little later.

2. Check the heads you have now. Look on the bottom of the intake side of the head and on one of the ports between the pushrod holes, you should notice a 4-digit casting code such as E7AE. If you have a set of E7xx heads, then I'd just clean them up and roll with them. The Cobra GT40 heads were F3ZE (1993 model) and F4ZE (1994-95 models). The Exploder GT40 heads were F1ZE and GT40Ps are F77E. The GT40 heads are becoming harder and harder to find as people snatch them up and rape them. The ones you do find with all machine work already done and ready to install, you could buy a lower end set of aluminum heads for the same price.

If you do have E7 heads and you are handy with a die grinder, just give them a little work over yourself. Clean up and blend the bowl and throat but don't hog it out. Keep the throat between 88-90% of the valve OD. Slightly lay back the short radius but don't grind away at the floor of the port. You're just trying to make a more direct path to the valve. The pinch point around the pushrod holes is the smallest CSA of the port. Bump it on each side but don't get carried away and grind into the pushrod holes. You're not going to make it match the rest of the port's CSA so don't try. Just make it a smooth transition. You don't want any abrupt changes in CSA that'll interfere too severely with intake pulses. On the exhaust side, grind out the thermactor bump all the way down. Just get rid of it. Lay back the short radius again and most important here is a making a gradual long radius from the throat to the port exit. The exhaust velocity is typically supersonic in the port so it's going to screaming out of the cylinder so fast that it's not going to see the volume. It's going to want to go somewhere. Guide it where it needs to go. I like a D-shaped exhaust exit with the flat part being on the floor. The first pair of E7s I did, I got them to flow 226 / 165 @ .600" lift with 1.94 / 1.54 valves. It just took a few hours of my time on a Saturday afternoon and was way easier than I imagined it would be. I just followed the advice others gave me.

3. In theory... you should be picking headers based on the engine's cam specs, exhaust port CSA, exhaust velocity, compression, etc... In practice, the headers get designed to fit the car. For a cruiser that relies on low rpm torque, shorty headers are the ticket. You'll be relying on the 4th harmonic wave to scavenge the cylinder at low rpm. It's not ideal but unless you're able to build a set of longtubes with 8 foot long primaries to scout the 1st or 2nd harmonic, shorties are all you have to work with. I like to keep the primaries as equal length as possible but a 3-4" variance in length isn't going to hurt much. I can't help much as far as which pre-made set to purchase as I have no knowledge what is out there for your car with a 302. There may be swap headers available. I tend to prefer something custom with tuned lengths for the engine's needs. I'm not sure if the Lincoln's factory manifolds would work, but I wouldn't want to use them anyway. If you're going to choke the engine with factory manifolds, then might as well keep the rest of it stock because you're not going to see the benefits much anyway.

4. There's plenty of converter options for the AOD. Just remember that the stall RPM is dependent on the torque output from the engine. The same converter advertised as a 2400 stall may stall at 2200 rpm behind a 302 and 2600 rpm behind a 351w. The weight of the car (load seen by the converter) and the gear ratio will alter the stall speed as well. Converter theory can be as complicated as cam theory. That said, I've used the TCI Saturday Night Special converter with the AOD and have no complaints. It did it's job. There's better ones out there but if on a budget, the SNS works well. In the real world, the converter should be spec'd to the weight of the car and cam / torque curve of the engine. Get those details ironed out first and then worry about the converter later. The lockup works mechanically with partial lockup in 3rd gear and full lockup in 4th. Something the AOD is notorious for is snapping the inner input shaft due during the 2-3 shift when the trans tries to engage the lockup. PA makes a stronger inner shaft that keeps the lockup. I've used it and it's held well.

1 Revisited. From the cams you mentioned, it would appear you're mostly concerned with the sound of the cam. The Thumpr cam is designed for this. I'd choose it over the F-cam if I absolutely had to choose between the two. Those two cams really are polar opposites of each other in terms of performance, and you'll like driving the Thumpr cam much more. It's actually not a terrible choice here IF (and that's a big IF) you keep the heads stock. With stock valves and low lift flow coefficients, the more aggressive intake valve opening and exhaust valve closing points will help the stock heads get the air moving. It's not ideal but it's not terrible. For a stock headed 302 looking for an aggressive idle and better top end, I like the Howards 222755-08. It's about the closest you'll get to having your cake and eating it too without going custom grind.

The better the heads, intake, and headers all flow, the smaller the cam needs to be to reach a desired goal. The smaller the cam, the broader the torque curve in most cases. If you go with GT40 heads or a set of aluminum heads, the Thumpr cam goes out the window. It's now hurting power and driveability more than helping. Something like a Comp XE268 or Lunati 61003 becomes much more appealing with GT40 heads or other ported factory iron with larger valves. Something like a Lunati 61002 or Howards 221275-12 becomes more ideal if going with a set of budget aluminum heads. If you decide to use a single plane intake, these recommendations go out the window. If you decide to stroke the engine to 331 or 347, these recommendations go out the window. If you decide to keep the factory exhaust manifolds, these recommendations go out the window. There's a reason there's thousands of cam options on the market. It's because there's thousands of different applications. Decide on your heads, intake, headers, use, transmission, rear gearing, and then we can dial in the desired cam to make it all work together.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Don’t quote me but I believe there were some HO motors with the t body on the other side to include ones that came on the LTD Crown Victoria.
I worked at a ford dealer in the late 80s. I know some thunderbirds and mark 7s had them, I wouldn't chisel it in stone, but, thought i remebered some of the big cars had some too. I know the sheriffs crown vics did.
 

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Don?t quote me but I believe there were some HO motors with the t body on the other side to include ones that came on the LTD Crown Victoria.
I worked at a ford dealer in the late 80s. I know some thunderbirds and mark 7s had them, I wouldn't chisel it in stone, but, thought i remebered some of the big cars had some too. I know the sheriffs crown vics did.
The p72's (police varient) did not come with an ho motor. The base engine was a LoPo 5.0 or an optional carb'd 351w.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Answers:

1. I would not use the stock rollers with either, that's my preference. I always pair a new cam with new lifters. As for the cam choices, that's going to be dependent on your heads, intake, and headers. The cam is the brain of the engine and the most critical part of a build IMO. I'm going to shoot down the F cam without even thinking much about it just because it's a letter cam that hasn't been relevant since the 90s. Going by the two options you listed, you're more concerned about having a lopey idle sound than having a good performing cam. With that in mind, I will revisit this a little later.

2. Check the heads you have now. Look on the bottom of the intake side of the head and on one of the ports between the pushrod holes, you should notice a 4-digit casting code such as E7AE. If you have a set of E7xx heads, then I'd just clean them up and roll with them. The Cobra GT40 heads were F3ZE (1993 model) and F4ZE (1994-95 models). The Exploder GT40 heads were F1ZE and GT40Ps are F77E. The GT40 heads are becoming harder and harder to find as people snatch them up and rape them. The ones you do find with all machine work already done and ready to install, you could buy a lower end set of aluminum heads for the same price.

If you do have E7 heads and you are handy with a die grinder, just give them a little work over yourself. Clean up and blend the bowl and throat but don't hog it out. Keep the throat between 88-90% of the valve OD. Slightly lay back the short radius but don't grind away at the floor of the port. You're just trying to make a more direct path to the valve. The pinch point around the pushrod holes is the smallest CSA of the port. Bump it on each side but don't get carried away and grind into the pushrod holes. You're not going to make it match the rest of the port's CSA so don't try. Just make it a smooth transition. You don't want any abrupt changes in CSA that'll interfere too severely with intake pulses. On the exhaust side, grind out the thermactor bump all the way down. Just get rid of it. Lay back the short radius again and most important here is a making a gradual long radius from the throat to the port exit. The exhaust velocity is typically supersonic in the port so it's going to screaming out of the cylinder so fast that it's not going to see the volume. It's going to want to go somewhere. Guide it where it needs to go. I like a D-shaped exhaust exit with the flat part being on the floor. The first pair of E7s I did, I got them to flow 226 / 165 @ .600" lift with 1.94 / 1.54 valves. It just took a few hours of my time on a Saturday afternoon and was way easier than I imagined it would be. I just followed the advice others gave me.

3. In theory... you should be picking headers based on the engine's cam specs, exhaust port CSA, exhaust velocity, compression, etc... In practice, the headers get designed to fit the car. For a cruiser that relies on low rpm torque, shorty headers are the ticket. You'll be relying on the 4th harmonic wave to scavenge the cylinder at low rpm. It's not ideal but unless you're able to build a set of longtubes with 8 foot long primaries to scout the 1st or 2nd harmonic, shorties are all you have to work with. I like to keep the primaries as equal length as possible but a 3-4" variance in length isn't going to hurt much. I can't help much as far as which pre-made set to purchase as I have no knowledge what is out there for your car with a 302. There may be swap headers available. I tend to prefer something custom with tuned lengths for the engine's needs. I'm not sure if the Lincoln's factory manifolds would work, but I wouldn't want to use them anyway. If you're going to choke the engine with factory manifolds, then might as well keep the rest of it stock because you're not going to see the benefits much anyway.

4. There's plenty of converter options for the AOD. Just remember that the stall RPM is dependent on the torque output from the engine. The same converter advertised as a 2400 stall may stall at 2200 rpm behind a 302 and 2600 rpm behind a 351w. The weight of the car (load seen by the converter) and the gear ratio will alter the stall speed as well. Converter theory can be as complicated as cam theory. That said, I've used the TCI Saturday Night Special converter with the AOD and have no complaints. It did it's job. There's better ones out there but if on a budget, the SNS works well. In the real world, the converter should be spec'd to the weight of the car and cam / torque curve of the engine. Get those details ironed out first and then worry about the converter later. The lockup works mechanically with partial lockup in 3rd gear and full lockup in 4th. Something the AOD is notorious for is snapping the inner input shaft due during the 2-3 shift when the trans tries to engage the lockup. PA makes a stronger inner shaft that keeps the lockup. I've used it and it's held well.

1 Revisited. From the cams you mentioned, it would appear you're mostly concerned with the sound of the cam. The Thumpr cam is designed for this. I'd choose it over the F-cam if I absolutely had to choose between the two. Those two cams really are polar opposites of each other in terms of performance, and you'll like driving the Thumpr cam much more. It's actually not a terrible choice here IF (and that's a big IF) you keep the heads stock. With stock valves and low lift flow coefficients, the more aggressive intake valve opening and exhaust valve closing points will help the stock heads get the air moving. It's not ideal but it's not terrible. For a stock headed 302 looking for an aggressive idle and better top end, I like the Howards 222755-08. It's about the closest you'll get to having your cake and eating it too without going custom grind.

The better the heads, intake, and headers all flow, the smaller the cam needs to be to reach a desired goal. The smaller the cam, the broader the torque curve in most cases. If you go with GT40 heads or a set of aluminum heads, the Thumpr cam goes out the window. It's now hurting power and driveability more than helping. Something like a Comp XE268 or Lunati 61003 becomes much more appealing with GT40 heads or other ported factory iron with larger valves. Something like a Lunati 61002 or Howards 221275-12 becomes more ideal if going with a set of budget aluminum heads. If you decide to use a single plane intake, these recommendations go out the window. If you decide to stroke the engine to 331 or 347, these recommendations go out the window. If you decide to keep the factory exhaust manifolds, these recommendations go out the window. There's a reason there's thousands of cam options on the market. It's because there's thousands of different applications. Decide on your heads, intake, headers, use, transmission, rear gearing, and then we can dial in the desired cam to make it all work together.
You are correct, in that, this car is just a cruise-in car. Just looking to make it sound good. The stock 272ci Y-block in the car makes 152hp. This 302 makes 150, So I thought if there was cost effective way to beef it up a little i would.

I agree with the new lifters, I guess i should have asked if i could use stock replacement lifters. I called comp cams for cam pricing for the thumpr. He told me that i need to buy thier bridge style rollers at a cost of about $550. That put the cam and lifter price at $884. I'm not doing that for this engine. Its just a crusier.

Head numbers are drivers side oe1 there is a big CP and 23 on the outside just below the valve cover on the front of the head. passenger side od16 the big CP and number 15 outside below the valve cover to the rear of the engine.

Just to qualify myself some, I raced dirt late models all through the 90's. So I do under stand very well the porting, polishing, header choice, ect that you explained thanks for the ins and outs of the ford. I raced chevrolet small block starting with 406ci and ending with 460ci small block all with factory steel block 400ci engines. The most power I ever got was naturally aspirated 454ci that made 725hp at jasper engines on their dyno.

On the AOD, So the over drive just locks up with out a detent cable? If I went with a small stall coverter will it do the same? If so, thats much easier then the 7004r thats in my 57 chevy. The smallest thumpr cam says you don't need a stall, but says that it "works" better with a small stall converter. That would be the only reason for the stall. After i got the trans out, I discovered that one of the torque converter studs was broken off long ago.

Thanks you for all this info. Its very very helpful

---------- Post added at 08:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:44 PM ----------

The p72's (police varient) did not come with an ho motor. The base engine was a LoPo 5.0 or an optional carb'd 351w.
I'm sure your right, maybe I'm thinking of the 351s. thats was 30years ago.
 

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I dont want to step on your toes man but Im into ltds and crown vics myself lol. Either way like I said it make be an ho upper intake flipped opposite that of the mustang.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I dont want to step on your toes man but Im into ltds and crown vics myself lol. Either way like I said it make be an ho upper intake flipped opposite that of the mustang.
When these cars where new, They had a lot of issues with the egr valves clogging up with carbon and sticking open, I cleaned a alot of egr valves. The other issue i remember was the ignition control modules where always dieing. I still have the small socket that i ground the outside of down to fit in the hole to get the bolts out. There isn't enough room on this message board for all the issues that the aerostar had. lol

I'm a big fan of the big cars also. Just about a month ago, I really considered buy an 02 or 03 Grand Marquis. It was just like a Marauder except it was all grey. Same wheels, console and buckets really cool car. The guy wanted 3g's I just couldn't justify another car sitting around so i let it go.
 

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You are correct, in that, this car is just a cruise-in car. Just looking to make it sound good. The stock 272ci Y-block in the car makes 152hp. This 302 makes 150, So I thought if there was cost effective way to beef it up a little i would.

I agree with the new lifters, I guess i should have asked if i could use stock replacement lifters. I called comp cams for cam pricing for the thumpr. He told me that i need to buy thier bridge style rollers at a cost of about $550. That put the cam and lifter price at $884. I'm not doing that for this engine. Its just a crusier.

Head numbers are drivers side oe1 there is a big CP and 23 on the outside just below the valve cover on the front of the head. passenger side od16 the big CP and number 15 outside below the valve cover to the rear of the engine.

Just to qualify myself some, I raced dirt late models all through the 90's. So I do under stand very well the porting, polishing, header choice, ect that you explained thanks for the ins and outs of the ford. I raced chevrolet small block starting with 406ci and ending with 460ci small block all with factory steel block 400ci engines. The most power I ever got was naturally aspirated 454ci that made 725hp at jasper engines on their dyno.

On the AOD, So the over drive just locks up with out a detent cable? If I went with a small stall coverter will it do the same? If so, thats much easier then the 7004r thats in my 57 chevy. The smallest thumpr cam says you don't need a stall, but says that it "works" better with a small stall converter. That would be the only reason for the stall. After i got the trans out, I discovered that one of the torque converter studs was broken off long ago.

Thanks you for all this info. Its very very helpful.
No problem. Feel free to ask anything.

For picking the cam, first verify that you have a roller cam. I didn't think this over too much at first. Thinking back on it, I think the Town Car got the scrap stuff that Ford couldn't respectively put on anything else during those years. They had junk E6 heads which are arguably the worst factory iron heads ever made. The stock cam was abyssmal. You may want to take a look at it and verify that you have a roller cam. IIRC, the non-HO 5.0 in the Town Car had a flat tappet cam up until 91 when they went to the 4.6L. Make sure it is in fact a roller block first. If it's a flat tappet block, then your build just got a lot cheaper. A flat cam has more performance potential for your intended purpose anyway.

Take a look at the bottom corner of the head just outside of the valve cover area. There should be a letter case there; either R, S, or T.

R = E5 heads
S = E6 heads
T = E7 heads

The CP stands for the Cleveland plant. The other numbers don't ring a bell. Another way to tell is by looking at the combustion chamber. The E5 or E7 heads had wedge chambers, and the E6 heads had heart chambers.
 

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All panther platform cars used flat tappet cams but all 302s from '86 had roller blocks. Also they used e5 heads which are pretty much identical to e7's but have a bigger combustion chamber creating an 8.5:1 compression ratio.

Op I own a 98 p71 and used to own an 85 ltd crown vic. I love these big cars. Im about to get a newer p71 and cant wait. My buddy also has a 99 town car with only a j modded 4r70w and its quick lol.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
No problem. Feel free to ask anything.

For picking the cam, first verify that you have a roller cam. I didn't think this over too much at first. Thinking back on it, I think the Town Car got the scrap stuff that Ford couldn't respectively put on anything else during those years. They had junk E6 heads which are arguably the worst factory iron heads ever made. The stock cam was abyssmal. You may want to take a look at it and verify that you have a roller cam. IIRC, the non-HO 5.0 in the Town Car had a flat tappet cam up until 91 when they went to the 4.6L. Make sure it is in fact a roller block first. If it's a flat tappet block, then your build just got a lot cheaper. A flat cam has more performance potential for your intended purpose anyway.

Take a look at the bottom corner of the head just outside of the valve cover area. There should be a letter case there; either R, S, or T.

R = E5 heads
S = E6 heads
T = E7 heads

The CP stands for the Cleveland plant. The other numbers don't ring a bell. Another way to tell is by looking at the combustion chamber. The E5 or E7 heads had wedge chambers, and the E6 heads had heart chambers.
Update, I took the heads off, when I flipped them over I saw the number they both have E7TE under one of the intake ports. They both have T below the valve cover. I looked through the oil drain hole towards the back of the block and it has roller lifters. It's a little hard to measure in the head, But it looks like it has 1.89 intake and 1.45 exhaust valves?

---------- Post added at 08:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 PM ----------

And not what I'd call heart shaped chambers. More of a circle with bottom cut off.
 

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Update, I took the heads off, when I flipped them over I saw the number they both have E7TE under one of the intake ports. They both have T below the valve cover. I looked through the oil drain hole towards the back of the block and it has roller lifters. It's a little hard to measure in the head, But it looks like it has 1.89 intake and 1.45 exhaust valves?

---------- Post added at 08:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 PM ----------

And not what I'd call heart shaped chambers. More of a circle with bottom cut off.
Okay so yeah, you have later block with factory roller cam. The E7TE heads have 1.78" / 1.45" valves and flow ~160 / 120 CFM in Stock form. Just putting in 1.85" / 1.54" valves with a good 3-angle valve job will bump that to around 185 / 130 which is near GT40 territory. Clean up the rough casting, grind down the thermactor bump, and do a bowl blend with a little SSR and pushrod pinch point work will net about 200 / 150 and still have a 140cc or smaller intake port with a lot of velocity.
 
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