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Never go ass to mouth.
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I think it's a dumb move, for the same reason they just placed the Corps on high alert.

AITs happened.
No point in leaking the details now.
Whatever happened at Bagram, and all the other black sites, should have stayed under wraps. It's no ones business what happened over there, except for the people involved.

And now, we're going to piss off a lot of people by saying "Yeah, we tortured those haji's, what are you gonna do" I have a feeling ISIS is going to use this as fuel for their cause.
 

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These documents should not be leaked by any means. Our country have been "utilizing" techniques at their disposal for many years in order to protect our brothers/sisters overseas and protect our country and allies. These "techniques" were utilized for the greater good, "the good of many out weight the good of a few". I agree with swazy that all this is going to do is create more leverage for ISIS and other radicals to give them more momentum in the fight and to have more insurgents join their fight. Our men/women overseas and countryside now have to be on high alert and keep their heads on a swivel from any possible retaliation.
 

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The ones they list as examples on the radio (sleep deprivation, humiliation, water boarding) don't seem to qualify as torture for me. Harsh, yes. Possibly mentally scarring, yes. Torture? **** no.

Feinstein saying that this will help the US by preventing it from ever happening again is bullshit. You can do that without releasing this report to the world. This will do nothing to quell the anti american sentiment in the world. It will only fuel the fire.

Not to mention if the report lists any of these so called black sites location, they are immediately 100% useless.

This is purely politics at the expense of Americans and America's allies world wide.
 

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Pawsitively sexy
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Discussion Starter #6
Devil's advocate, here.

I think it's a dumb move, for the same reason they just placed the Corps on high alert.

AITs happened.
No point in leaking the details now.
Whatever happened at Bagram, and all the other black sites, should have stayed under wraps. It's no ones business what happened over there, except for the people involved.

And now, we're going to piss off a lot of people by saying "Yeah, we tortured those haji's, what are you gonna do" I have a feeling ISIS is going to use this as fuel for their cause.
Then where is the accountability? We aren't ISIS. We aren't terrorists(or so we say), so how can we justify stooping to their level? Furthermore, one of the main issues brought up in the report is the effectiveness of these tactics. What point is there in selling our soul to the devil when we don't even get a return? This report, as well as the one to be released later by the Republican's, could help shed some light on this issue, since we currently have virtually nothing to show us one way or the other the effectiveness of "advanced interrogation".

And isn't it already generally accepted that we tortured the enemy? Just by saying "The enemy can't see this ****" aren't we basically owning up to it? Is there really a significant group of people in the Middle East who think we humanely treated POW's in black sites?

These documents should not be leaked by any means. Our country have been "utilizing" techniques at their disposal for many years in order to protect our brothers/sisters overseas and protect our country and allies. These "techniques" were utilized for the greater good, "the good of many out weight the good of a few". I agree with swazy that all this is going to do is create more leverage for ISIS and other radicals to give them more momentum in the fight and to have more insurgents join their fight. Our men/women overseas and countryside now have to be on high alert and keep their heads on a swivel from any possible retaliation.
Like I pointed out above, where is the accountability? Where is your evidence that "advanced interrogation" works? And while it's entirely your right to argue a utilitarian viewpoint, it's absurd coming from an American. We hate utilitarianism in the States. We condemn it as socialistic bullshit, so how can we turn around and use it as an excuse? You can't use a system of beliefs is advantageous to you and discard it any other chance you get, unless of course you don't care what the outside world thinks about us American's. But isn't your whole point that we should care?

The ones they list as examples on the radio (sleep deprivation, humiliation, water boarding) don't seem to qualify as torture for me. Harsh, yes. Possibly mentally scarring, yes. Torture? **** no.

Feinstein saying that this will help the US by preventing it from ever happening again is bullshit. You can do that without releasing this report to the world. This will do nothing to quell the anti american sentiment in the world. It will only fuel the fire.

Not to mention if the report lists any of these so called black sites location, they are immediately 100% useless.

This is purely politics at the expense of Americans and America's allies world wide.
Have you ever been water boarded? Have you ever been subject to radical sexual humiliation? I'm going to jump to the conclusion of "no". How then, can you claim that neither can cause a person severe pain? Let's refresh our memories of what "torture" entails: the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.

And remember, what proof do we have that these techniques are effective?
 

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Never go ass to mouth.
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Devil's advocate, here.



Then where is the accountability? We aren't ISIS. We aren't terrorists(or so we say), so how can we justify stooping to their level? Furthermore, one of the main issues brought up in the report is the effectiveness of these tactics. What point is there in selling our soul to the devil when we don't even get a return? This report, as well as the one to be released later by the Republican's, could help shed some light on this issue, since we currently have virtually nothing to show us one way or the other the effectiveness of "advanced interrogation".

And isn't it already generally accepted that we tortured the enemy? Just by saying "The enemy can't see this ****" aren't we basically owning up to it? Is there really a significant group of people in the Middle East who think we humanely treated POW's in black sites?



Like I pointed out above, where is the accountability? Where is your evidence that "advanced interrogation" works? And while it's entirely your right to argue a utilitarian viewpoint, it's absurd coming from an American. We hate utilitarianism in the States. We condemn it as socialistic bullshit, so how can we turn around and use it as an excuse? You can't use a system of beliefs is advantageous to you and discard it any other chance you get, unless of course you don't care what the outside world thinks about us American's. But isn't your whole point that we should care?



Have you ever been water boarded? Have you ever been subject to radical sexual humiliation? I'm going to jump to the conclusion of "no". How then, can you claim that neither can cause a person severe pain? Let's refresh our memories of what "torture" entails: the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.

And remember, what proof do we have that these techniques are effective?
So you're panties are in a wad over the use of less than humane treatment of men that tortured and killed innocent people as part of their daily lives?

There's plenty to show for these tactics. They aided in finding some high value targets. Bin Laden being one of them. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti. Then senate can say Mohammed released information after the "advanced interrogation" but that doesn't mean that I wasn't what broke him. After all, the purpose of torture is to break down and force to conform/comply. It takes a while to break down the integrity of a sworn jihadist. There is nothing to say that the interrogation techniques were ineffective
 

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I didn't read the report but I agree water boarding, humiliation, and sleep deprivation are not torture. It actually sounds like my fraternity pledging lol. The US is a more civilized culture then the enemy but when you are dealing with an enemy that doesn't care about life you need to use pain tactics and such to get information. The enemy can't ignore extreme pain even if they want to die. If we are dealing with a civilized enemy so to speak we can use gentleman's tactics, when we deal with an uncivilized brutal enemy we should get medieval in our tactics. Enemies who cut off heads of US citizens deserved a slow painful death. We show them being taken out by missiles and heavy machine gun fire but really to them being hit with stuff like that is instantaneous. They are alive, then dead, who cares. Give them a reason to think it will be slow and painful if they mess with our citizens.

I don't think how the military conducts it's operations is any of our business. How they use taxpayer money yes, but methods of disposing of enemy personnel and information gathering is better left between military and the enemy. One main reason why is because you would have Americans that think it is inhumane to knock a member of ISIS's dick in the dirt because it's not the American way.
 

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To be clear Foxfive/Corey it's not mainly the military that was doing that stuff or was trained to be doing that stuff those were CIA operations being talked about.
But the enemies play's by rules that the soldiers don't play by period but this story and situation seems to be more about the CIA and the things they were doing.
 

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Never go ass to mouth.
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Yes, BAF is joint. Sailors, Soldiers, Marines, ISAF. But the reason I brought it up was simply because it held one of the better known detention facilities, where the CIA conducted their ops.
 

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I would actually rather have trained military units doing interrogations like that rather then the CIA. That way the information would be provided directly to the military where it belongs. It can then be distributed from there. The CIA uses the military as a tool and it should be the other way around in my opinion. I'm sure there is a lot of information not being released to the military by the CIA and those are the guys taking the bullets.
 

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Never go ass to mouth.
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But really we have politicians and bureaucrats deciding everything, and the guys on the front lines don't really no the bigger picture of what's going on over there, even though their the ones fighting.

---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ----------

Tree'd lol
 

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Pawsitively sexy
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Discussion Starter #14
So you're panties are in a wad over the use of less than humane treatment of men that tortured and killed innocent people as part of their daily lives?
What is the end goal? To say "Hey, these things are unacceptable" and then go just about as deep down the rabbit hole as the enemy? Was it not the "War on Terrorism"? How can you win a war when at the end of it all you're no better? What incentive is there for other nations to not torture POW's when we do? We lambasted the Nazi's for their treatment of American soldiers, and the war crimes of many other nations, yet it's okay for us? It's absurd and, in the context of how both administrations aimed the light at this war, completely counterproductive.

There's plenty to show for these tactics. They aided in finding some high value targets. Bin Laden being one of them. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti. Then senate can say Mohammed released information after the "advanced interrogation" but that doesn't mean that I wasn't what broke him. After all, the purpose of torture is to break down and force to conform/comply. It takes a while to break down the integrity of a sworn jihadist. There is nothing to say that the interrogation techniques were ineffective
Santa Claus is real.

Oh hey look, we have the same amount of evidence to support our arguments. At the end of the day, you can say this or that, but without actually scrutinizing the process and the "results", we can't make these claims. That's what happens when you put something above scrutiny.
 

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Never go ass to mouth.
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So how can you say they weren't effective if there's nothing to back that claim up?
You can't hold a double standard.

And you can't compare the mass aimless torture and murder committed by Nazi regime and Al queda to the relatively miniscule amount of "torture" used by the US against terrorists.

You speak of stooping to their level...
If someone terrorized your family/friends and threatened you, would you not beat the **** out of and possibly kill the aggressor in order to stop the threat? Would you consider that stooping? Or would you consider that necessary and just?

They tortured and killed thousands. We smacked up and interrogated a few, because all the boots on the front lines...all the men dying and killing, were not enough. We had to cut the head off the snake, and they did what was necessary.

You can call me biased, or butthurt, because I had friends and brothers die in that fight...but at the end of the day... What's done is done, and I find it somewhat justified.

Obviously playing nice was getting nothing accomplished during the interrogations, but we were dealing with die hard jihadists. Sometimes the only way to get through to radicals, is to do something radical, or "stoop to their level" as you put it.

Regardless of if it can be proven effective or not, we had to use every option and tactic and tool at our disposal. And that's what the CIA did.
 

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Pawsitively sexy
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Discussion Starter #16
So how can you say they weren't effective if there's nothing to back that claim up?
You can't hold a double standard.
A double standard? This is a tl;dr rundown of this conversation we've been having in America.

"Torture is inhumane"

"But it gets results"

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. My point is that we shouldn't be torturing POW's. You're making the claim the techniques are effective.

And you can't compare the mass aimless torture and murder committed by Nazi regime and Al queda to the relatively miniscule amount of "torture" used by the US against terrorists.
We don't know the extent of what we've done to POW's, because we've turned our heads and pretended nothing bad was happening. Again, where is the balance? Where is the liability? To this point, it hasn't existed unless some fool decided to snap pictures of the crime.

You speak of stooping to their level...
If someone terrorized your family/friends and threatened you, would you not beat the **** out of and possibly kill the aggressor in order to stop the threat? Would you consider that stooping? Or would you consider that necessary and just?
1.You're continuing to operate under a complete assumption, so this holds no water. But additionally to that, trying to put the perspective of national issues into the perspective of a lone, sovereign man is ridiculous.

They tortured and killed thousands. We smacked up and interrogated a few, because all the boots on the front lines...all the men dying and killing, were not enough. We had to cut the head off the snake, and they did what was necessary.
By my count, we've tortured and killed thousands too. But it's okay for us, right? Two wrongs make a right.

Obviously playing nice was getting nothing accomplished during the interrogations, but we were dealing with die hard jihadists. Sometimes the only way to get through to radicals, is to do something radical, or "stoop to their level" as you put it.
When did we play nice? Can you point to a date where we began using these techniques? Of course not. Why? Do I need to keep hitting the accountability word?

Regardless of if it can be proven effective or not, we had to use every option and tactic and tool at our disposal. And that's what the CIA did.
The same ideology that turns young men into terrorists. But we're America, so **** it.
 

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Never go ass to mouth.
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Opposing views aside, I like talking politics with you. You actually put some logic into your responses and have well thought out opinions.
If I'm ever in Delaware, we'll have to grab a drink and converse. After I cover you LS dumpster in dust, of course. :shiftyeyes


But really, we can agree on one thing. No one really knows everything that happened/happens over there, except for those involved.

That's why I disagree with the release of this information. Obviously, what's leaked is incomplete, and is just fuel to the fire for the current radical/extremist threat.

That is my short answer to the question in your OP.
 

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Pawsitively sexy
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Discussion Starter #18
Opposing views aside, I like talking politics with you. You actually put some logic into your responses and have well thought out opinions.
If I'm ever in Delaware, we'll have to grab a drink and converse. After I cover you LS dumpster in dust, of course. :shiftyeyes


But really, we can agree on one thing. No one really knows everything that happened/happens over there, except for those involved.

That's why I disagree with the release of this information. Obviously, what's leaked is incomplete, and is just fuel to the fire for the current radical/extremist threat.

That is my short answer to the question in your OP.
And remember, not everything I'm arguing I necessarily agree with. I like playing devils advocate. lol

I personally think there may be some merit, but I feel there are many negatives too. I don't personally have an answer as to which side of the argument I feel is right.

*bro hug*
 

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The Boss is in
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Why does our government release **** like this at the worst possible times? I truly believe someone in the government or multiple people in the government love the turmoil. Shouldn't have been released at all, but now of all times? Dumb.
 
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