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Discussion Starter #241
Actually you are wrong. I'm concerned about two things. The first is the same thing that you are. His discussions with the Russians. Yet, as the article states, it isn't uncommon for a candidate's staff to talk to foreign representatives.

The other thing that concerns me is how did our intelligence get the information (wire tapping citizens?) and how did what should have been classified information (wire tapping foreign ambassadors) get leaked to the press by nine intelligence officers?

I am currently looking for more information.
 

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Actually you are wrong. I'm concerned about two things. The first is the same thing that you are. His discussions with the Russians. Yet, as the article states, it isn't uncommon for a candidate's staff to talk to foreign representatives.

The other thing that concerns me is how did our intelligence get the information (wire tapping citizens?) and how did what should have been classified information (wire tapping foreign ambassadors) get leaked to the press by nine intelligence officers?

I am currently looking for more information.
So you're worried about how this information got out and, it would seem, that you are also opposed to the ways that this information was culled yet when Clintons emails were exposed that didn't seem to be such a concern......

John
 

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Discussion Starter #243
Clinton deleted her emails. The DNC and Podesta were hacked. That is a concern. Just like the OMP hack was a concern and many other hacks were a concern. Actually the OMP hack did far more damage to our national security than the DNC hack. All of those hack were illegal performed by foreign governments.

In this instance either our own government was listening in a conversation or they were listening in on a foreign government's ambassador's conversation. The first is an illegal act of our own government against its own citizens and the second should have been classified. Means and methods of gathering intelligence is always classified as is wire taps on foreign ambassadors. Such things can lead to international incidents. Or did you forget that the DNC hacks when proven who was responsible led to an international incident.
 

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So let's see. Your president, from day one, has had only flattering remarks for one of our countries most hated enemies who is a proven despot and murderer. Your president has a major portion of his investments within this persons sphere. Your president owes Russian banks big. Your president openly said that he wanted russia to find the "deleted" emails and post them.

Now, apparently, your president is flatly denying he or anyone else in his campaign or cabinet have had any communications with any russians during the election and has denied it throughout the election yet now evidence is pointing in that direction. Lets add in the last sanctions that BHO put on the Russians. Prior to that any sort of sanctions were met with loud rebukes from Russia yet on this last one not a one.

John
 

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Discussion Starter #245
Where are you getting your information? I've read nothing about Trump's investments in Russia or that he owes money to Russian banks. And that would have been big news.

Also the timeline is important. Trump did not have access to intelligence briefings when he was saying that he doubted Russia was involved. After he received the briefings he acknowledged the fact. And, yes it is a bit confusing that the Russians did not have a bigger response. But Obama was on the way out. By the way, this isn't the first time a foreign country did something like that. Iran released the hostages on the same day that Reagan was inaugurated.
 

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Where are you getting your information? I've read nothing about Trump's investments in Russia or that he owes money to Russian banks. And that would have been big news.

Also the timeline is important. Trump did not have access to intelligence briefings when he was saying that he doubted Russia was involved. After he received the briefings he acknowledged the fact. And, yes it is a bit confusing that the Russians did not have a bigger response. But Obama was on the way out. By the way, this isn't the first time a foreign country did something like that. Iran released the hostages on the same day that Reagan was inaugurated.
'In 2008, Donald Trump Jr. said Trumps businesses "see a lot of money pouring in from Russia."

"And in terms of high-end product influx into the US, Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets; say in Dubai, and certainly with our project in SoHo and anywhere in New York. We see a lot of money pouring in from Russia. There's indeed a lot of money coming for new-builds and resale reflecting a trend in the Russian economy and, of course, the weak dollar versus the ruble," he said.'


Look up Bayrock Group and Trumps ties to them.....they are a russian funded corporation. Trump owes a lot of money to Deutsche Bank. Deutsche Bank was caught in a $10 billion dollar russian money laundering scheme.

John
 

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It's getting interesting in Washington.

Yet another example of Trump's inner circle not having a ****ing clue either. You've got Conway saying one thing, Spicer saying another, and Steve Miller flat out avoiding it right before this was announced.
One would think it's like a year plus or a couple of years into the administration watching some of this stuff. Then the reality that it's still February(mid February) sets in.
 

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Discussion Starter #252
I'm glad Trump asked for Flynn's resignation. As a retired military officer I couldn't believe the lack of integrity and honesty that a four-star general showed. I have worked for a couple of generals and briefed at least a dozen. All were great examples of duty, honor and country.

I was willing to give Flynn the benefit of doubt but this guy lied to the Vice-President and others on his team putting their integrity and honor in question and perhaps even putting the security of the United States at risk. His apology was not enough. He has dishonored himself, the military in which he had served and the White House. He has become someone who cannot be trusted. If he were a junior officer he would have faced either article 13 charges or a courts martial. He had to go.

If it can actually be proven that he colluded with the Russians then as a retired officer he could be recalled and still face charges. I still find it unfortunate that it took leaks of possible classified information to get to the bottom of this.

While I am on this subject it would be nice if Bannon resigned as well.
 

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missippi roolz
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Didn't realize Flynn was actually previously fired by Obama as well.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_T._Flynn
In a private e-mail that was leaked online, Colin Powell said that he had heard in the DIA (apparently from later DIA director Vincent R. Stewart) that Flynn got fired because he was "Abusive with staff, didn't listen, worked against policy, bad management, etc."[30] According to The New York Times, Flynn exhibited a loose relationship with facts, leading his subordinates to refer to Flynn's repeated dubious assertions as "Flynn facts".[32]
Kind of parallels and paraphrases conveniently with Trump's entire overall theme thus far.
 

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I'm not so worried about Flynn and what he did because I consider Flynn the fall guy in this whole scenario. I HIGHLY doubt that Flynn would have gone on his own and done what he did without first counseling and getting verbal approval from the man himself. I believe Pence was left out of the mix on this one. Obviously, unless Flynn himself admits to the subterfuge(or Trump for that matter), this will never be proven out but Trumps affectations towards Russia hint at the very conspiracy theory I'm proposing.

BTW the official word is that Flynn resigned before Trump actually asked him to. They did it this way so that Trump doesn't look like the inexperienced buffoon that he is. How would it look if he had to actually fire someone that he promoted as “one of the country’s foremost experts on military and intelligence matters” only to be found out as a treasonous asshole? Maybe he's great at military strategy but the intelligence stuff? Not so much.

In regards to whether this has been proven or not I would offer the resignation as proof of what he did. If Flynn was willing to give up his post you can be sure the transcripts of his conversation tell it all. I'm sure the transcripts will get leaked one way or another, probably through russian channels using a proxy like Wikileaks as their mouthpiece, since Russias ultimate goal is not to come together but to tear us down from the inside out. Putin is playing Trump like a puppet on a string. His plan to re-establish Russian authority is being fulfilled by our cluelessly incompentent leader while our illustrious leader is aiding and abetting that scenario through his narcissistic machismo, inept egotism and callous greed.

John
 

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Discussion Starter #255
If you boil all of that down then you think Trump was in on it. Maybe, maybe not. Nine intelligence officers were suppose to be involved in the leaks. If I recall only two of the nine said anything about the sanctions and Russia denies that they talked about sanctions. Whether they did or not doesn't matter. The entire thing has disgraced Flynn and he has resigned.
Report: Kremlin denies Flynn and ambassador discussed lifting sanctions - POLITICO

The Russian response to Flynn's resignation makes me think that he was the guy they liked, far more than Trump. The Russians are saying that the White House has gone anti-Russia with Flynn's departure. They say that Russophobia has taken hold. They must have leaned something from the DNC hacks. They are using the same name-calling tactic that the Democrats use. "Russophobia' means that we have an irrational fear of Russia. Being wary of Russian is not irrational. It is a wise precaution.
Russian officials defend Flynn, say admin may be infected with 'Russophobia' | Fox News
 

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Why would the former head of the KGB expose an operative? Especially one that is in such a high position and is so easily manipulated? One has already been found out. Of course their crying that the WH is anti-russian. That is the propaganda they want us to believe. Unfortunately Trumps actions in the past show the polar opposite.

The saddest part to all this is the combination of Trumps attack on our intelligence community along with refusal to heed the warnings of the justice department because, it seems, if you don't agree 100% with Trump you are a liar. Only Trump tells the truth. What happens when intelligence reports of russian military moves gets ignored because "Putin is a great guy"?!??!!

John
 

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missippi roolz
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Why would the former head of the KGB expose an operative? Especially one that is in such a high position and is so easily manipulated? One has already been found out. Of course their crying that the WH is anti-russian. That is the propganda they want us to believe. Unfortunately Trumps actions in the past show the polar opposite.

The saddest part to all this is the combination of Trumps attack on our intelligence community along with refusal to heed the warnings of the justice department because, it seems, if you don't agree 100% with Trump you are a liar. Only Trump tells the truth. What happens when intelligence reports of russian military moves gets ignored because "Putin is a great guy"?!??!!

John
Well if Trump keeps insulting the intelligence agencies and courts, eventually they're going to turn against him and let the house of cards fall on top of him. So, who knows.

The only problem is that the only reason the government works is because of people's general, relative trust in the system. Trump is successfully sowing doubt in the system across the spectrum and, if history is any indicator, if left unchecked or if he successfully convinces everyone that they can't trust the system of checks and balances (as is being seen even on this forum), it's not too many further steps to tyranny. And, also as history has shown, the most successful rise of dictators are the result of democracies allowing themselves to be scared into tyranny after creating doubt in the systems that keep everyone in check.
 

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Discussion Starter #258
What checks and balances have been ignored? As much as Trump is complaining about the appellant court's opinion he is still complying with it.
 

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missippi roolz
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What checks and balances have been ignored? As much as Trump is complaining about the appellant court's opinion he is still complying with it.
It's not him ignoring them. It's him and his followers calling out the courts or some of his cabinet members saying he should be able to push these EOs through without any question or resistance. It's his supporters claiming that the courts that are putting up resistance should be tried for treason or some other ridiculous ****.

That mindset is dangerous. Perhaps there's no action right now but that mindset of his followers and being propped up by his own statements and the implications behind them could take us down a pretty rough road. Some people might be of the mindset of "let's just wait and see what happens" but I'm more than happy to support preemptively snuffing out the idea that Trump is more trustworthy than the judicial system.

---------- Post added at 03:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:35 PM ----------

Coming over to pick up their boy Flynn!

Russia sends spy ship near US coast, deploys banned missiles at home, officials say | Fox News
 

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Discussion Starter #260
It's not him ignoring them. It's him and his followers calling out the courts or some of his cabinet members saying he should be able to push these EOs through without any question or resistance. It's his supporters claiming that the courts that are putting up resistance should be tried for treason or some other ridiculous ****.
Obama called out the Supreme Court justices in a joint session of Congress when they made a decision he didn't like. Andrew Jackson actually told the Supreme Court that it was their decision and that they needed to enforce it. Presidents and courts have often locked horns over issues.
 
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