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acidtonic

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
So being an engineer I cant help but try to think outside the box when it comes to squeezing more from these cars....

These are just some random things I've been pondernig most of which fall outside of the feasible category and I understand that. Just wondering what others think about these ideas..... This stuff isnt really too serious so be kind please.


1. Would it be possible to install a clutch pulley on a twin screw along with a supercharger bypass into the engine to allow the driver to switch off the supercharger and have the motor breath normally? Maybe even with aftermarket ecu have it change the fuel maps and timing to perform a bit better without the blower parameters? Uses would be fuel savings and safety if the supercharger has any kind of failure or overheating issues.

2. What about using a geared extremely high torque electric motor to prespin a single large turbo? My thinking here is somehow pre spooling the turbo without raising revs so at dead idle it is near full boost. Some kind of signal to aftermarket ecu to change spark,timing,fuel maps to accommodate the high boost. Perhaps diverting the exhaust flow from the turbo while the motor powers it to increase the flow. Some kind of trigger at higher rpms to clutch the electric motor while allowing the exhaust to continue to power the turbo?

^^^ That one is way out there but I wonder if it would work as thought.

3. I've heard about large ionic vacuums that can circulate air without moving parts by charging the air. I wonder if a high powered one could flow enough air to simulate low boost? Maybe have a large high amp capacitor that is charged from the battery while driving. User controlled switch to engage the system and account for extra fuel and slightly reduced timing while in operation. Enough charged power to increase the flow for some small amount of time like 3-7 seconds. Only would work if enough extra flow could be generated that would be noticeable. Even a gain of 10-20rwhp would be nice to have on tap.

4. What about using those thermoelectric coolers and placing them cool side down all over the intake and other parts of the engine to cool things down a bit. They might provide a little extra cooling to help run more timing or boost. I've heard normal sized ones will remove 50F from the hot side.

5. I'd like to have some aftermarket switch to control the IMRC on my 97 Cobra. I've heard the delaying the opening until around 4000rpm instead of 3250rpm can yield a significant torque gain. It would be nice to have some way to decide when they open or shut with whatever chosen time correctly swapping the tables in the ecu.

6. Any way to utilize electronic adjustable suspension components along with some accelerometers placed in all 4 corners of the car to implement some kind of auto stability system? So during hard cornering the suspension could correctly raise or lower the proper side of the car to keep it level and reduce body roll. Seems like it wouldnt be too hard and with my programming experience plus some math I think its achievable. Any available parts that could be used for this? Only that I know of is air ride but I think its too slow to quickly adapt to changes and not meant for that purpose.

7. Since the mirrors are powered wouldnt it be possible to utilize the transmissions reverse indicator to have them point the mirrors down all the way to view the tires and curb? Use a small circuit board that saves the current position to revert to when the shifter leaves reverse.

Thanks for reading, be kind if something is too out there or perhaps incorrect. I just wanted to see what people think about these ideas.
 
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#2 ·
:confused:

They all sound good though. Way to keep the mind workin'!
 
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#3 ·
1) How would the computer know the clutch fan has extened causing low boost conditions.. i.e. manual to computer reference?
2) Where would the electric motor gets it's supply from? Would it be efficient enough as far as electrical output, weight?
3) This could possibly work.. hydrogen and nitrogen are both ionic.. look into that
4) Icing the intake is an old hot rod trick, so anyway to plumb cold air to the intake would be effective.. but I doubt there is anything powerful out there on the market again that is efficient enough to withstand combustion chamber outputs at wot.
5) This is kind of but not really like vtec situations. I've dabbled in tuning various honda vtec progrems and played with the solenoid activation rpm and by delaying the rpm, it yielded a lot more torque.. and every honda needs as much as they can. I understand that a variable runner system and vtec are totally different, but all in the same, all it does is convert the long runner (torque) to short runner (hp) much as dual camshaft lift points. This was also huge on the TPI - Tuned Port Injection vs LT1 debate. Shorter runners are always far superior in making torque, but the super long runner tpi made massive torque.
6) I'm sure with a simple rebound rate program, that electronic stability could be had. I.e. dial in vehicles weight, divide each wheels weight itself. Find that desired weight.. say 700 lbs for that wheel and measure ride height to the accelorometer. Enter that value as a constant with a pos/neg scale. x number of heigh incrament = x number of rebound percentage. You could do this with a variable valving system such as an abs module where pressure is controlled electronically through the sensors and adjusted by hydraulic pressure. Electronics are relatively light weight, so this is something to look into.
7) Look into memory seat technology... also, have a neg/pos flip solenoid. such as a power lock switch. Mount it behind the lense, run a rod with ball socket to the mirror itself.. give the switch accessory power, and run the ground circuit to the reverse light grounding wire for contiunity.
 
#5 ·
6 and 7 already exist in high end cars. My buddies acura TL has the mirror thing, and it's not exactly high end, but i know bmw, and merc have technologies that electronically control the shocks based on input from sensors around the car (the hardness settings depend on driver input though) Maybe other car manufacturers, but those are the first that come to mind.

and please don't try to write software unless you're a software engineer. It just ends up slow, and ugly.

I like the idea for number 2, hell, just have like a starter-like motor to do it, the only problem would be power, but that could be mitigated by something like a high output alternator, or a second battery. Would of course need extra sensors, like flow to know when the motor can turn off, and the exhaust gases take over. Unless it was a set place in the computer.

Either way, would need some new software, maybe some new sensors, and new hardware.
 
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#7 ·
acidtonic said:
So being an engineer I cant help but try to think outside the box when it comes to squeezing more from these cars....


1. Would it be possible to install a clutch pulley on a twin screw along with a supercharger bypass into the engine to allow the driver to switch off the supercharger and have the motor breath normally? Maybe even with aftermarket ecu have it change the fuel maps and timing to perform a bit better without the blower parameters? Uses would be fuel savings and safety if the supercharger has any kind of failure or overheating issues..
Click to expand...
someone was watching Mad Max lol
 
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#8 ·
You could do the supercharger bypass on the centri blowers because they could be bypassed easily, top mounts would be hard if not impossible because all the air goes thru the blower and if it isnt boosting the air then its impeding it. As for preboosting the tubos you would have to do a little more work into than that because if you are not on the throttle and you spin up the turbos the boosted air is gonna hit the throttle blades and put alot of strain on the snails, or just go right out the blow off valve.
 
#9 ·
acidtonic said:
1. Would it be possible to install a clutch pulley on a twin screw along with a supercharger bypass into the engine to allow the driver to switch off the supercharger and have the motor breath normally? Maybe even with aftermarket ecu have it change the fuel maps and timing to perform a bit better without the blower parameters? Uses would be fuel savings and safety if the supercharger has any kind of failure or overheating issues.
Click to expand...
Possible, but as Doc says, when the blower's not spinning, it will certainly be an impediment to flow. What you save by this clutching system would just as easily be done by using "properly" matched turbo that wouldn't spool 'til say, 4k when your IRMC plates opened, so that when you wanted to take it easy, you just kept your rpms down under where boost hits.

acidtonic said:
. What about using a geared extremely high torque electric motor to prespin a single large turbo? My thinking here is somehow pre spooling the turbo without raising revs so at dead idle it is near full boost. Some kind of signal to aftermarket ecu to change spark,timing,fuel maps to accommodate the high boost. Perhaps diverting the exhaust flow from the turbo while the motor powers it to increase the flow. Some kind of trigger at higher rpms to clutch the electric motor while allowing the exhaust to continue to power the turbo?
Click to expand...
Only immediate issue I see with this is that resistance increases with heat, and turbos are very hot. You'd also have to put a very heavy duty alternator to deal with the load, which would negate a lot of the power gain at lower rpms. At this point, might as well just run a supercharger with a boost controller (yes, I've seen it done).

acidtonic said:
3. I've heard about large ionic vacuums that can circulate air without moving parts by charging the air. I wonder if a high powered one could flow enough air to simulate low boost? Maybe have a large high amp capacitor that is charged from the battery while driving. User controlled switch to engage the system and account for extra fuel and slightly reduced timing while in operation. Enough charged power to increase the flow for some small amount of time like 3-7 seconds. Only would work if enough extra flow could be generated that would be noticeable. Even a gain of 10-20rwhp would be nice to have on tap.
Click to expand...
I know nothing about these :)

acidtonic said:
4. What about using those thermoelectric coolers and placing them cool side down all over the intake and other parts of the engine to cool things down a bit. They might provide a little extra cooling to help run more timing or boost. I've heard normal sized ones will remove 50F from the hot side.
Click to expand...
So long as you provide somewhere to vent the heat that will accumulate on the hot side of your Peltier coolers, this seems reasonable. Only potential issue would be the possible stress introduced in the metal from having an exteme heat differential, but I'm not sure on that.

acidtonic said:
5. I'd like to have some aftermarket switch to control the IMRC on my 97 Cobra. I've heard the delaying the opening until around 4000rpm instead of 3250rpm can yield a significant torque gain. It would be nice to have some way to decide when they open or shut with whatever chosen time correctly swapping the tables in the ecu.
Click to expand...
Easily doable with a MegaSquirt, or maybe even a hacked rev limiter.

acidtonic said:
6. Any way to utilize electronic adjustable suspension components along with some accelerometers placed in all 4 corners of the car to implement some kind of auto stability system? So during hard cornering the suspension could correctly raise or lower the proper side of the car to keep it level and reduce body roll. Seems like it wouldnt be too hard and with my programming experience plus some math I think its achievable. Any available parts that could be used for this? Only that I know of is air ride but I think its too slow to quickly adapt to changes and not meant for that purpose.
Click to expand...
Heavy and expensive. Adjustable shocks that give you the same quality of dampening as a non-adjustable bilstein are in the $1k+ per corner range, and now you're wanting ones that not only electronically controllable, but have a rapid enough response time to be worth it. Honestly would probably be cheaper at this point to buy a ZR1 or new CTS.

acidtonic said:
7. Since the mirrors are powered wouldnt it be possible to utilize the transmissions reverse indicator to have them point the mirrors down all the way to view the tires and curb? Use a small circuit board that saves the current position to revert to when the shifter leaves reverse.
Click to expand...
I see no issue with this, this actually sounds like the easiest of all the ideas so far. I don't even know that you'd need to hack a seat controller to do it.

acidtonic said:
Thanks for reading, be kind if something is too out there or perhaps incorrect. I just wanted to see what people think about these ideas.
Click to expand...
Nah man, I always like hearing your ideas!
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
Glad to see some constructive thoughts coming out of this... I'm absolutely beat but I'll respond more in depth sometime tomorrow morning.
 
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Discussion starter · #11 ·
zers said:
6 and 7 already exist in high end cars.
Click to expand...
I thought that was a cool feature. Its new in the sense that a Mustang doesnt have that yet.

zers said:
and please don't try to write software unless you're a software engineer. It just ends up slow, and ugly.
Click to expand...
I have been writing software since the young age of 5 on my C64 :).
Currently writing some custom network management software for work and spending 30+ hrs a week on it. Yes this is my profession. :cool:

zers said:
I like the idea for number 2, hell, just have like a starter-like motor to do it, the only problem would be power, but that could be mitigated by something like a high output alternator, or a second battery. Would of course need extra sensors, like flow to know when the motor can turn off, and the exhaust gases take over. Unless it was a set place in the computer.

Either way, would need some new software, maybe some new sensors, and new hardware.
Click to expand...
I think its easier to have a large capacitor or two which uses the extra energy from the alternator to slowly charge. Perhaps have some kind of indicator when its fully charged and ready to be used. Power requirements are only high if you expect to use it every few seconds but I wouldnt mind going 1-5min between uses. Also having the caps allows it to discharge at higher amps without diming lights and pissing off the computer and/or spark.

And since most electric motors are just generators that work the opposite way you can discharge the caps into it to spin the turbo, then when the exhaust swaps over keeping the electric motor engaged (assuming it can handle the speed) would mean its also generating power by turning which might be utilized to speed up recharging.

Same idea where you take a small motor and hook a voltmeter to the motor inputs and spin the motor.... You'll see a small amount of power come out the motor input. No idea how much force the electric motor will take to spin with the turbo and hopefully its not too much that it lags or ruins performance.
 
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Discussion starter · #13 ·
Doc8224 said:
You could do the supercharger bypass on the centri blowers because they could be bypassed easily, top mounts would be hard if not impossible because all the air goes thru the blower and if it isnt boosting the air then its impeding it. As for preboosting the tubos you would have to do a little more work into than that because if you are not on the throttle and you spin up the turbos the boosted air is gonna hit the throttle blades and put alot of strain on the snails, or just go right out the blow off valve.
Click to expand...
What about disengaging the supercharger in that situation? Do they make a clutch for the pulley or something similar? The idea is to drop the parasitic load on the motor to increase fuel economy and also aide in cooling without the hot blower air entering the motor.

And then for the prespin turbo idea... I was thinking about a system where you flip one switch that "arms" the preboost motor which will then activate at a certain above idle rpm once reached. That way it spins right as you are opening up the throttle and coming out of the hole. Assuming you hook that would pretty much eliminate the lag yet you still have a decent amount of RPM left to ride out the power as opposed to dropping the clutch at 5K which needs a quick shift soon after. Does that make sense?

Since the idea of revving to 5K is for building boost I think it would be nice to build boost without sacrificing the revs. Riding out full boost from 1500rpm to 7K would be a much faster ride than full boost from 5K->7K. Same arguments in favor of twin-screw vs centri except this time we want full turbo boost earlier. The act of using the elec. motor is really only for the start. This way we could also use much bigger turbos since the spool time is less concern.

I do like this idea and it sounds possible assuming the right electric motor can be found and coupling the turbo with the motor could be achieved properly. I suspect the transfer of power from the elec. motor to exhaust would need a lot of fine tuning to maintain boost and still be a smooth transition.

Just a fun topic to think about. Someday I might try to get something like this working.
 
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#14 ·
Ok first off it could be done but the clutch system would have to be gear driven...... Sorry but your not going to make any boost with a 5 inch pulley. Secondly bypassing the blower can be done easily with a bypass valve commonly found on all terminators in a smaller form.
 
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#15 ·
What about combining a centrifugal type supercharger, and a turbo, and have just a couple clutches that let whichever is spinning fastest have it? it would take less hardware .. but some kewl design, and it would use stuff the car already does anyway. And yea, they make clutch pullies for fans, you could make one for a supercharger.

Though as for the 'now and again' button you were talking about, yea, the capacitor idea is certainly interesting.
 
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#16 ·
comments in bold
acidtonic said:
1. Would it be possible to install a clutch pulley on a twin screw along with a supercharger bypass into the engine to allow the driver to switch off the supercharger and have the motor breath normally? Maybe even with aftermarket ecu have it change the fuel maps and timing to perform a bit better without the blower parameters? Uses would be fuel savings and safety if the supercharger has any kind of failure or overheating issues.

You would need a huge 4" air bypass into the manifold somehow. It would be very hard and require extensive fabrication to use with a PD blower. It would be easier with a centri, but still require a lot of fab work.

2. What about using a geared extremely high torque electric motor to prespin a single large turbo? My thinking here is somehow pre spooling the turbo without raising revs so at dead idle it is near full boost. Some kind of signal to aftermarket ecu to change spark,timing,fuel maps to accommodate the high boost. Perhaps diverting the exhaust flow from the turbo while the motor powers it to increase the flow. Some kind of trigger at higher rpms to clutch the electric motor while allowing the exhaust to continue to power the turbo?

Compressing air requires huge amounts of power. When they test blowers with electric motors they are 440V 100+ hp motors. Why would you want full boost at idle? You mean off idle? Just get a PD blower!

^^^ That one is way out there but I wonder if it would work as thought.

3. I've heard about large ionic vacuums that can circulate air without moving parts by charging the air. I wonder if a high powered one could flow enough air to simulate low boost? Maybe have a large high amp capacitor that is charged from the battery while driving. User controlled switch to engage the system and account for extra fuel and slightly reduced timing while in operation. Enough charged power to increase the flow for some small amount of time like 3-7 seconds. Only would work if enough extra flow could be generated that would be noticeable. Even a gain of 10-20rwhp would be nice to have on tap.
Those things cannot generate any pressure, or move anywhere near enough air.

4. What about using those thermoelectric coolers and placing them cool side down all over the intake and other parts of the engine to cool things down a bit. They might provide a little extra cooling to help run more timing or boost. I've heard normal sized ones will remove 50F from the hot side.

Maybe 50* from the hot side of a cpu chip! To make any difference you would need tons of them and 1000+W to power them. They are also very inefficient and this is straight from wiki.
Thermoelectric junctions are generally only around 5–10% as efficient as the ideal refrigerator (Carnot cycle), compared with 40–60% achieved by conventional compression cycle systems (reverse Rankine systems like a compressor). Due to the relatively low efficiency, thermoelectric cooling is generally only used in environments where the solid state nature (no moving parts, maintenance-free) outweighs pure efficiency.
Click to expand...
5. I'd like to have some aftermarket switch to control the IMRC on my 97 Cobra. I've heard the delaying the opening until around 4000rpm instead of 3250rpm can yield a significant torque gain. It would be nice to have some way to decide when they open or shut with whatever chosen time correctly swapping the tables in the ecu.

You can do this in the tune already.


6. Any way to utilize electronic adjustable suspension components along with some accelerometers placed in all 4 corners of the car to implement some kind of auto stability system? So during hard cornering the suspension could correctly raise or lower the proper side of the car to keep it level and reduce body roll. Seems like it wouldnt be too hard and with my programming experience plus some math I think its achievable. Any available parts that could be used for this? Only that I know of is air ride but I think its too slow to quickly adapt to changes and not meant for that purpose.

loads of high end and ricer cars already have this.

7. Since the mirrors are powered wouldnt it be possible to utilize the transmissions reverse indicator to have them point the mirrors down all the way to view the tires and curb? Use a small circuit board that saves the current position to revert to when the shifter leaves reverse.

high cars have this as well.
Click to expand...
 
#17 ·
Im a mechanical engineer so I know a bit bout this. It seems your background is more in computers and electronics so Ill comment on what I know.

comments in bold ;)

acidtonic said:
So being an engineer I cant help but try to think outside the box when it comes to squeezing more from these cars....

These are just some random things I've been pondernig most of which fall outside of the feasible category and I understand that. Just wondering what others think about these ideas..... This stuff isnt really too serious so be kind please.


2. What about using a geared extremely high torque electric motor to prespin a single large turbo? My thinking here is somehow pre spooling the turbo without raising revs so at dead idle it is near full boost. Some kind of signal to aftermarket ecu to change spark,timing,fuel maps to accommodate the high boost. Perhaps diverting the exhaust flow from the turbo while the motor powers it to increase the flow. Some kind of trigger at higher rpms to clutch the electric motor while allowing the exhaust to continue to power the turbo?

It would be hard to get a electric motor to spin at that speed. Gears areny usually designed for those speed. Turbo blades are small and thin, therefore having a small mass and low inertia. Gears would probably be to big and heavy to get up to speed. Thats why superchargers are around

^^^ That one is way out there but I wonder if it would work as thought.

3. I've heard about large ionic vacuums that can circulate air without moving parts by charging the air. I wonder if a high powered one could flow enough air to simulate low boost? Maybe have a large high amp capacitor that is charged from the battery while driving. User controlled switch to engage the system and account for extra fuel and slightly reduced timing while in operation. Enough charged power to increase the flow for some small amount of time like 3-7 seconds. Only would work if enough extra flow could be generated that would be noticeable. Even a gain of 10-20rwhp would be nice to have on tap.

Youd run into consistancy issue since that works of the theory that air has a charge and uses an opposite charge to attract the air molecules. The effectiveness on ionic vacuums is still under alot of debate as well.

4. What about using those thermoelectric coolers and placing them cool side down all over the intake and other parts of the engine to cool things down a bit. They might provide a little extra cooling to help run more timing or boost. I've heard normal sized ones will remove 50F from the hot side.

That would work but like its been said you have to remove the heat. Also mounting and fitting somethin like that to work effectively would be difficult. Its similar to aftercoolers for roots/twin screw blowers though.


6. Any way to utilize electronic adjustable suspension components along with some accelerometers placed in all 4 corners of the car to implement some kind of auto stability system? So during hard cornering the suspension could correctly raise or lower the proper side of the car to keep it level and reduce body roll. Seems like it wouldnt be too hard and with my programming experience plus some math I think its achievable. Any available parts that could be used for this? Only that I know of is air ride but I think its too slow to quickly adapt to changes and not meant for that purpose.

Possible but WAY TOO COSTLY! You would need adjsutable damper first off, then ud need a way to moniter the roll, pitch and yaw of the car. Then you need to use the info to input change to the suspension and adjust it. IT would vary with everycar and be extremely costly to develope.


Thanks for reading, be kind if something is too out there or perhaps incorrect. I just wanted to see what people think about these ideas.
Click to expand...
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
@ TrickTuners.

Yes I know some of this isnt 100% new, but its new to mustangs.

@ Comments mentioning just getting a PD blower.

I'm sure people told Ben Franklin when he was discussing ideas about light bulbs to "just use candles".

Having full boost down low works wonders even with the drain of the supercharger on the motor...... Think about how awesome it would be to have a Turbo producing the same boost down low without parasitic loss.

I did mean off idle not AT idle.... I mean having almost full boost ready when you start moving. Power eventually becomes less of a limiting factor as the time lost to shifting....All we're doing here is putting more value back into the lower rpms to draw out that first shift.

@ Comments around the suspension leveling already existing.

I know that isnt new once again I meant new in the sense that no mustang is running around with that technology. So besides Bose who sells parts to make this idea work on a mustang?
 
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#19 ·
(why did everything turn black?)

acidtonic said:
@ TrickTuners.

Having full boost down low works wonders even with the drain of the supercharger on the motor...... Think about how awesome it would be to have a Turbo producing the same boost down low without parasitic loss.
Click to expand...
The hellion eaton combo will do just that. (feed the blower with the turbos so you get good low rpm performance from the eaton at 9psi, then high end turbo performance) Nearly any PD blower will have 80%+ peak boost at 2000rpms. You just need gobs of power to create any boost, especially with an electric motor!
 
#20 ·
acidtonic said:
@ TrickTuners.

@ Comments around the suspension leveling already existing.

I know that isnt new once again I meant new in the sense that no mustang is running around with that technology. So besides Bose who sells parts to make this idea work on a mustang?
Click to expand...
I dont think anyone is gonna look into this in the aftermarket. The research needed is gonna keep this to the majot manufacturers. To make it work well in a racing application, or aggressive driving as we desire is so much more difficult.
 
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