Where Should I Be Power Wise Now?

Nasty · Jan 10, 2012

Dynojet makes a loaded dyno that uses a Eddy Current for load control like the one VMP Tuning uses. It's the 224xLC and I'd say it's the most accurate dyno, speaking in terms of course. VMP Tuning actually just bought a brand new 224xLC to put in the floor of their shop as well as their dyno trailer. Pretty nice ****.

wrathchild · Jan 10, 2012

Most accurate HOW though

The number it produces is accurate to what standard?

When the average person speaks of HP, they are speaking in numbers that were arrived at with a dyno using the loading and calculation algorythms that most engine dynos use.

garydahl · Jan 10, 2012

thanks for the info!!

Nasty · Jan 10, 2012

wrathchild said:
Most accurate HOW though The number it produces is accurate to what standard?

Most accurate as in what has become industry standard. I should of also mentioned reliable / consistent as well.

wrathchild said:
When the average person speaks of HP, they are speaking in numbers that were arrived at with a dyno using the loading and calculation algorythms that most engine dynos use.

The numbers are produced / calculated by using those algorithms that we know because of how we know hp and torque are derived.

faym 08 · Jan 10, 2012

holy ****!!!!

Darwin · Jan 10, 2012

Your set up is near mine minus the intake. I ran on the stock 235 tires with a 1.99 60' a 12.83 at 107.7 mph in cool autumn air. I too have an auto and use a 93 street tune. I run full weight (spare included) and with a 3/4 tank of fuel with stock suspension with aftermarket LCAs.
As far as hp I have no idea, a dyno pull means nothing to me as track performance is the tell all.
You want numbers that count then you need to track the car and get it on the scales and do the math and there are formulations out there that will be just as good as a dyno. The dynos I dont know much about but do they scale the cars before they apply the resistance? industry standard?
I run against other cars with dyno numbers that are higher than my estimated numbers I get after I scaled the car at the track and made my runs, I have their numbers on my slips and run the math and find them to be lower hp than their dyno numbers so don't waste your cash on a dyno unless you believe your car's tune is bad.

From DragTimes tool: Horsepower @ flywheel = 355.90 HP
Now if you apply estimates of power taxation by the drivetrain that number could be anywhere. A stock 300 hp with auto was reported to lose 30- 40hp some even more. So if my car is losing 40hp I am at 305-315 at the wheels.

Now if we put a 3800 stall on the car and a set of DRs and gain .2 (1.79) at 60' and .4 at the 1/4 (12.43) and still have the same mph....

From DragTimes tool: Horsepower @ flywheel = 373.27 HP

Then my car has 335-340 hp at the wheels.....then if I was to gain more?

12.33 would be: Horsepower @ flywheel = 377.97 HP (I don't think so)

Which are the real numbers?

Do they matter?

I believe you will run a 13.1 at 105 and with your weight and suspension on street tires: estimated Horsepower @ flywheel = 339 HP

That would make you at 309-315 at the wheels?

Put a set of DRs on it and a 12.9 would be possible but it does not mean you added HP to the car.....which some people like to use these numbers...lol

I am being a contrarian pain in the ass but just looking at this HP and dyno game people play I had to do it. :tomato

Your car will get the 12 if you apply the right parts and a dyno will not help unless your present tune is crap which I doubt.....good luck.

wrathchild · Jan 10, 2012

Darwin said:
I believe you will run a 13.1 at 105 and with your weight and suspension on street tires: estimated Horsepower @ flywheel = 339 HP

That would make you at 309-315 at the wheels?
.

A few things

If you had the same setup, without the intake, I should make MORE, if only slightly, power than you. So I am not sure how you are coming up with a number slower than yours *confused*

Now, bear with me, I am doing math and thinking as I am typing...

Also, if my car makes 300 at the crank stock, I highly doubt that

Intake
Throttlebody
FRPP intake manifold
Hot Rod cams
LT headers
Electric water pump

Is only good for 39hp at the crank. And going by your own math of 40hp loss to the wheels (which I DO believe to be fairly accurate for a stock car) That would put me at 299 at the wheels. Which people are doing without the EWP, cams, intake manifold and Throttlebody (I know for those people the manifold and throttlebody would do next to nothing if anything at all, but with my car having the cams, they are good for a little bit)

Can you explain how you are coming to this conclusion? Particluarly the part where a car with more mods is making less power and running slower?

I ask this seriously, not in a dickish way.

I also bring up the fact that the top end kit which consists of the 62mm throttlebody (which I think at this power level there is no difference between that and the 60 which the GT500 has), the FRPP intake manifold, and the HOT Rod cams, when combined with LT headers, did 375chp on an engine dyno. (I would assume that the FRPP cai or something similar was used as well, I cant see them doing that test with the stock airbox) and 375hp, using your 40hp number, that would put that engine at 335whp, which seems to be about what people with intake/cams/LT headers/CMDPs/Pulleys are making (speaking in general terms of course) If we assume even a 15% drivetrain loss, which seems a bit low, even for a manual, that puts that motor at 319 at the wheels. (which means either they are making a little more than 375, or the fact that "most people" seem to be making around 330ish seem a bit "optimistic". Now, I DO have an automatic. So I would expect a maybe 20% drivetrain loss, Which puts me at... 300whp. At least its not a Subaru, which has an a close to 30% drivetrain loss.

Hmm

Maybe you are on to something. However, that EWP is known to be good for ~11 at the flywheel, and the few results I have seen are in the 6-8whp range. I still think I should be at least slightly over 300 without that, so maybe that 315 number is pretty realistic.

HOWEVER< that said, Even if that 300 is a dead on number, People are running 12s on street tires, with less mods than I have, on street tires (not deep 12s, but 12s nonetheless) And more like mid 12s on drag radials. At least from what I have seen.

So again, even after coming up with the fact that 300-315 may in fact be realistic,

I still gotta ask, with my car having MORE mods than yours, where are you coming up with thinking it will be slower? Dont say the Automatic thing, because a modded (even just "modded" in the fact that the programmer has radically changed its shift points) automatic, if anything should be faster than the 5 speed in the 1/4 because of the faster shifts and less shifts. (what gear do 300-325whp 5 speed mustangs go through the traps in? I would assume I will be in 3rd and they would be in 4th)

I think, if I can manage to get under a 2.0, I think a 12.8 (high 12.8) and somewhere in the 105-107mph range isnt out of the question.

Look, I also am aware that as this thread goes on, I am seemingly "answering my own question" But I am doing so by reading the posts and working things through my head. So please, feel free to continue to flow opinions/ideas/thoughts/facts/whatever.

wrathchild · Jan 10, 2012

Honestly, my plan is to have 15X10s with MH cheater slicks (those "drag radials" that are essentially a wrinkle wall slick with 2 grooves cut in them) on them by the middle of next summer anyway. (for at the strip) I just need to research if that is feasable or if I am setting myself up to break things.

wrathchild · Jan 10, 2012

Silverrider said:
Holy cow dude, I wouldn't even post numbers up in here... cause I don't have a track slip.. come on, who cares if someone wants to know the hp and not track there car..

Oh I definitely plan on tracking it. Just not right now. Later in the spring.

Darwin · Jan 12, 2012

Great reply you gave me, I love the suppose questions, suppose this vs that and never get bothered by them. I find solutions and even find most of my errors that way.

SCT tune 93 octane I have a 93 tune
JLT CAI (V2) I have a good CAI
GT500 TB I still have stock
FRPP intake manifold I still have stock
Meziere electric water pump With UDPs does my water pump drain all that much more?
JBA LT headers with high flow cats/shorty H pipe I have LTs and run a O/R Xpipe and doubt they added all that much more than your high flow
FRPP Hot Rod cams I have aftermarket cams from Comp and seen some top end speed gains but lost low end
4.10s (I know they affect what makes it to the wheels) I also have the 4.10s with the auto and kept the tune shift points of the tune untouched.
I have CMDPs though not a intake manifold like yours but the gains of that one you have only play in the high rpm range I wonder what our differences are at this level and would like to know, I might look at that for possible addition to my own mods so I will be watching what you get

Our mods are quite close unless you have not listed everything and i based my guess on this:
I am assuming there is a weight difference of around 200lbs between our cars. I run steady 12.8-9s and 13.0xx if the air is bad, now if you are around 200lbs heavier (3700lbs with driver coup vs 3850lbs with driver convertible 150lbs difference) and the differences in our mods are not so extreme from each other then I would be right. I have this stock converter still and with Dr's the car launch is more consistant in the 60' but not any better.
Your foundation is great so far and with a converter and a set of DR's and driver skill and the right track conditions you could see a 12.4 with that set up you have if you get the 60' down enough.

Whenever I consider a mod I look closely at what others have done and where they end up and then give it some thought.

I might mess with the shift points next season....see if i get more gains.

Good luck, this is fun the numbers game.

BlueDevil · Jan 12, 2012

wrathchild said:
What am I planning? Well I have a pretty decent amount of experience on and around dynos (from my days tuning Subies), so I figure, I can basically take whatever I make on that particular Mustang, and add roughly 50whp to it, to get to what I would have made on an "average" reading dyno.

why not just add 37 hp to the dynonumber? or how about 53? you can't just arbitrarily pick a number out of thin air because your subaru experience says it sounds about right. What if your car dynoed at 550 hp? would you still add 50 hp? How about if your car dynoed at 125 hp...still going to add 50?
Save your $40 for the drag radial fund.

wrathchild · Jan 12, 2012

BlueDevil said:
why not just add 37 hp to the dynonumber? or how about 53? you can't just arbitrarily pick a number out of thin air because your subaru experience says it sounds about right. What if your car dynoed at 550 hp? would you still add 50 hp? How about if your car dynoed at 125 hp...still going to add 50?
Save your $40 for the drag radial fund.

Yeah good point.

BUT,

I am coming up with that 50 going off what I have seen other cars make on this dyno (like I said, its a dyno I know fairly well, its a friends shop) and what they make on other dynos.

Although.. Those cars are ALL AWD. Which have a different amount of drivetrain loss (a lot more) so Im not sure how that affects things. I dont think it does WHP comparison wise, Obviously it would affect it if I was trying to figure out CHP.

Also, I have a lot of friends that will be dyno'ing there that day. This will give me a "here is what you are making compared to them". Which I would like to know as well.

BlueDevil · Jan 12, 2012

wrathchild said:
Also, I have a lot of friends that will be dyno'ing there that day. This will give me a "here is what you are making compared to them". Which I would like to know as well.

Ahh-bragging rights. $40 for comparison's sake is worth it I suppose...I'd probably do it if my friends were all dynoing on the same day.

wrathchild · Jan 13, 2012

craven said:
i would say about 290-300 rwhp. 05-09 GT autos run a baseline dyno number of 255-265 all day long.

your mods and a tune are good for 30-35 rwhp. thus between 290-300 max

Are you sure you are looking at ALL my power mods? It seems like you arent.
Here is what I have again (for reference since its not on this page)
JLT CAI
SCT tune 93 race
GT500 throttlebody
FRPP intake manifold
Cams
LT headers>exhaust
electric water pump

Are only good for 30-35whp? I dont see how that is possible. I welcome explanation, but I just dont buy it at that low of a power level. People see almost those gains from cams alone.

Especially when you said

craven said:
C&L Race 95mm intake
JBA longtubes
O/R H
stingers, or pypes mufflers
SCT x3 dyno tune
4.10's
Steeda delete plates
steeda UDP's

that will net you about 320 rwhp.

That list is without the cams, without the electric water pump which will have similar if not slightly larger gains than UDPs, and the intake manifold that makes the same/more power than the delete plates.

Basically, I have what should be 35-40hp (crank hp) worth of mods on top of that list, and you are putting me 20whp lower than that list? I know that an auto sucks up more power than a manual, but its going to suck up over 40whp worth more than the manual?

Or am I missing something?

wrathchild · Jan 13, 2012

craven said:
i had all the mods that you listed except the cams, and electric pump. I put down 312 rwhp.

so cams are good for like 15-20 rwhp with a great tune. so that would have put me @ 327-335 rwhp.

The manual GT's baseline @ 265-275 rwhp stock. The best run i have seen in an auto is 255 rwhp.

Mine put down 276 rwhp bone stock. thats 20 rwhp difference.

335 - 20 = 315 rwhp that is what you are left with.

understand?

I am @ the dyno at least 4 times a month for the dyno test and tune. I know what they run. I will bet that you run in the 310-320 range MAX.

That makes more sense. That 299-300 just seemed SO low.

Unless you are talking about one of the 2 Mustang dynos near me. In which case, 299-300 sounds AWESOME. :lol

Darwin · Jan 13, 2012

craven said:
335 - 20 = 315 rwhp that is what you are left with.

understand?

I am @ the dyno at least 4 times a month for the dyno test and tune. I know what they run. I will bet that you run in the 310-320 range MAX.

Sort of what I came to figure. His 4.10s will skew what he really has at the crank, yet the reading will be a good benchmark and if he gets some tune pulls and they dig up 5 more hp might be at 320 or more at the wheels.

I hope he reaches the mark or suprise us with a grand pull and make us all wrong. Then I can use that to learn more that is if he shares it.

wrathchild · Jan 13, 2012

Well it will probably be a while till I am on a normal dyno. Hopefully someone will have a dyno day this summer. I am going to one this month but its on a particularly BRUTAL mustang dyno, and I will be happy to break 275 on that thing.

Where Should I Be Power Wise Now?

Nasty

wrathchild

garydahl

Nasty

faym 08

Darwin

wrathchild

wrathchild

wrathchild

Darwin

BlueDevil

wrathchild

BlueDevil

wrathchild

wrathchild

Darwin

wrathchild

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