im on 11 psi well 11.9psi according to dyno sheet to be exact, afm powerpipe and stock 3.6" pulley im making 366rwhp&363rwtrq on 12*timing non ic right now in a stalled 01 gt auto. Now after reading a ton of threads alot seem to say anything past 10psi on our 99-04 2v is pushing it is that true? are my power levels safe any left in it or this about it safely? just wanna know cause many people say most on my psi levels dont have their car last long and blow motors? just wanna know the truth here before I start making alot of passes in a few months?
Are My Power/Boost Levels Safe On Stock Motor?
zinsavage123
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I've been running 12lbs for like 25k miles. I pushed the setup as far as 14/15lbs for a couple weeks before backing it down because I ran out of fuel. I've since done a wiring upgrade to the pump I may turn it back up lol. If the tune is one and your not hitting max boost climbing a hill or in over drive doing 140mph (the motor can rev freely) then it will probably hold up pretty good. Its not the boost the kills these motors, its cylinder temps and detonation.
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Well I really want to hit 400whp when I fm ic in a week , I'm currently at 366&363 11.8psi 12* timing non ic, think I can hit it on stock pulley?
I'm not sure what your intercooler setup is but if you can get it to make 10lbs by 6k RPM you should be right around 400rwhp. All FMIC are different, some have alot of boost drop, some dont, it depends on alot of different things. Kind of a crap shoot. I'm sure you will have to pulley down to at least a 3.33 though once you get your FMIC in if you want to get back up in the boost. I would pulley that bitch to make 12lbs by 6000rpm and it will make over 425rwhp.
I run an aftercooler setup (which I love) and I make 12lbs with a 3.6 pulley. Basically zero boost drop at 12lbs. Maybe once I crank it up to 15-16lbs I will start to see some loss but I dont expect it will be more than 1lb honestly. I run a killer chiller setup with my aftercooler and an HPX maf on the discharge tube so its a blow through setup. Its pretty trick honestly the only downfall is that your working in very tight spaces and BOV choices are limited. I ended up running a mini race though which worked WAY better than I expected. I didnt get compressor surge even when I cranked it up to 15lbs but the BOV is literally 5" away from the compressor which makes a big difference.
If I had my way though I would have a TIAL 50mm. I considered drilling through the fender well below the aftercooler and having the BOV sitting inside of the inner fender well. I thought that would be pretty trick. Totally hidden but loud as **** haha. But I hate cutting holes in my cars so for now my mini race sits right under the power pipe (still very hidden).
I run an aftercooler setup (which I love) and I make 12lbs with a 3.6 pulley. Basically zero boost drop at 12lbs. Maybe once I crank it up to 15-16lbs I will start to see some loss but I dont expect it will be more than 1lb honestly. I run a killer chiller setup with my aftercooler and an HPX maf on the discharge tube so its a blow through setup. Its pretty trick honestly the only downfall is that your working in very tight spaces and BOV choices are limited. I ended up running a mini race though which worked WAY better than I expected. I didnt get compressor surge even when I cranked it up to 15lbs but the BOV is literally 5" away from the compressor which makes a big difference.
If I had my way though I would have a TIAL 50mm. I considered drilling through the fender well below the aftercooler and having the BOV sitting inside of the inner fender well. I thought that would be pretty trick. Totally hidden but loud as **** haha. But I hate cutting holes in my cars so for now my mini race sits right under the power pipe (still very hidden).
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There no set number. Its not like 420hp is safe and 421hp you go boom. The general concensus is goin over 400 hp is playing with fire, especiially when done with only boost. With cams guys run low 400hp safely.
Dont do it with out cams. see below.
Having your stock cams advanced is prolly whats helping you
NA cams create the most dynamic pressure at mid range rpm, this is why your see your peak torque here. When you add boost with NA cams you get even more pressure. The added pressure spike creates more heat and the added heat of the compressed air is a recipe for detonation. Blower cams are designed with this in mind. Since you have forced air coming in the you dont need as much dynamic pressure to create the same power. Blower cams also allow boost to force the old air out of the cylinder, so the new charge in cooler.
If you want 400+hp get blower cams youll be safer and get more gains as you add more upgrades. You also dont mention any suspension mods. With the stock suspension and 400+hp your goona be hurting to put power down. My buddy beat me off the line with 350hp when I had 450hp. I was on stock suspension he had everything done.
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Well i will prolly stay under 400whp just on safe side, but 400+ to crank/motor is fine right? Cause I gotta be about 400-420 in my auto to put 366whp down right?
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We are talking about WHP, not crank.
Another thing to consider is your location. A car on the coast at close to see level will have a lower correction factor for is number and therefore a truer power rating while driving. And car in somewhere like colorado that has air that is much lesser dense wont be as close to the dyno number since the correction factor is higher.
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You need to look at the uncorrected numbers as well as the corrected numbers. The uncorrected ones are how much power your car is making at that particular moment.
366 rwhp is approximately 457 hp at the crank.
366 rwhp is approximately 457 hp at the crank.
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if thats the case for me aint I pushing it?
All this BS about how cams allow your motor to work easier needs to stop. I think I'm going to write a very in depth article (which most probably wont read because its not easy to understand) about how cams truly work. True the cylinder pressure may go down a little but its not cylinder pressure that breaks your motor.... its detonation and can it rev freely..... making 12lbs of boost at 2500rpm lugging in 5th gear GREAT WAY TO SNAP A ROD OR BREAK A RING LAND..... 12lbs of boost at 4k RPM in 2 or 3rd gear MUCH EASIER ON THE MOTOR......
Advancing stock cams INCREASES CYLINDER PRESSURE (basically does the same thing as running a high compression piston in many ways but not exactly the same) which does the opposite of adding cams so by many peoples reasoning here that will make my motor break..... Its still putting down 440+rwhp. Sees readline at least 20 times a day, commute 30k miles a year in. The odometer just hit 150k on my way to LA today.... Still running hard.
WHY? Good Tune (no detonation, doesnt lean out, good intercooler, all the basics and Vortech doesnt make instant boost when the motor is lugged down at a low rpm so in other words it can rev freely.... Have you ever noticed ALOT MORE KB, WHIPPLE, TWIN SCREW MOTORS BREAK RODS? Thats why........9lbs of instant boost at 2500-3500rpm with the motor just cruising on the freeway and BOOM. I hear of more of them breaking that way than any other...
This is exactly why you dont spray nitrous below 2500 and if your smart 3000 RPMS. Even on a direct port fogger system that puddling isnt an issue you still dont spray from a dig unless its progressive and ramps up with RPM... The engine needs to be able to rev.
Advancing stock cams INCREASES CYLINDER PRESSURE (basically does the same thing as running a high compression piston in many ways but not exactly the same) which does the opposite of adding cams so by many peoples reasoning here that will make my motor break..... Its still putting down 440+rwhp. Sees readline at least 20 times a day, commute 30k miles a year in. The odometer just hit 150k on my way to LA today.... Still running hard.
WHY? Good Tune (no detonation, doesnt lean out, good intercooler, all the basics and Vortech doesnt make instant boost when the motor is lugged down at a low rpm so in other words it can rev freely.... Have you ever noticed ALOT MORE KB, WHIPPLE, TWIN SCREW MOTORS BREAK RODS? Thats why........9lbs of instant boost at 2500-3500rpm with the motor just cruising on the freeway and BOOM. I hear of more of them breaking that way than any other...
This is exactly why you dont spray nitrous below 2500 and if your smart 3000 RPMS. Even on a direct port fogger system that puddling isnt an issue you still dont spray from a dig unless its progressive and ramps up with RPM... The engine needs to be able to rev.
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Your horsepower level is fine. It's the non-intercooled 12 psi of boost that I'd be concerned about. A rough calculation puts you at 457 hp at the crank (366 / 0.80). A rough calculation puts my motor at 457 hp at the crank (uncorrected 388 / 0.85). I've been running that for several years and 77,000 miles. But, I'm running intercooled 9 psi instead of non-intercooled 12 psi. That is why I said you are past the point where boost is doing you any good. You have to pull so much timing that you're not getting any more horsepower.
"Safe" is a relative term. What one person considers safe another might think as risky. I think Nitmare is pushing it but he's running an air-to-water aftercooler, a Killer Chiller, and some other things. To him, 440 rwhp is safe. Bob Kurgan has tuned dozens of our 2v motors to 450 rwhp (around 529 at the crank) but they have cams and other supporting mods. Other motors are coming apart running at 415 and 430 rwhp running boost alone. Only you can make the decision of what's safe for you.
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I disagree that cylinder pressure does not break motors. That is exactly what bends rods and busts ringlands. More boost equals more pressure equals. Car could never see detonation and blow the motor.
To each their own I guess. I've tune no less than 10 cars up around the 450rwhp mark..... All still running. The most important part of the equation at that point is ensuring there isn't any detonation. The only pitfal to this is bad gas.. You can't tune for that! But have a properly designed timing table, relocated IAT and plenty of fuel makes all the difference. To be totally honest though so motors are just weaker than others.
Also having the IAT as LOW as possible is very important with any tune. My new motor is 9.5:1 and I'm going to push 15lbs on it. Some people think that's crazy but I only build centri motors this way. I'm actually running an active intercool AND a meth kit on that motor. With just the intercooler my temps at 1K feet (4 gear run) are still 10-15 degrees below ambient and sometimes as much as 20. Spraying meth is going to bring that down eveven more not to mention allowing me to run more timing. I'm new to the meth world and haven't gotten my car on the dyno yet since install but I'm running 18 degrees of timing right now and will probably go as high as 20.... I'm hoping to cross the 450rwhp mark with on the stock motor before I pull it. We'll see just how much abuse this 150K motor can handle!!!
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Cylinder pressure is directly linked to detonation. More pressure means more heat and a better chance of detonation. Its obviously not the only factor but I cant see how can say it has nothing to do with it.
I completely agree that hittin wot at low rpms is a horrible idea. That gonna produce a whole bunch of heat and stress on everything.
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Their seems to be a million answers on what the 99-04 2v can gable whp on stock motor....almost all shops my way say don't go over 375whp....geuss I'm gonna blow up.
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Shops are gonna be more conservative cuz they dont want the rep of blowing motors.
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True if that the case what is max whp limit ? Their is a million answers
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just adding to whats safe or not:
I have had my motor at ~430 for 2 years now. I do have full bolt on's and stage 2 cams, so my boost levels are a lot lower then most (7.5 psi @ about 5.5k rpms)
Is it safe? Eh. for the first two years I havent even considered it was unsafe. Now that the car has been blown for a while I do have the occosional "I wonder" moments. Like right now. I hear a wierd noise and It makes me wonder "what if". In that sense, I am getting quotes as we speak on a new motor just in case.
advice:
1) Get some kind of heat exchanger... weather it is a FMIC, Air-to-water, meth, whatever.
2) Keep the boost numbers as low as you can (while still obtaining the results you want)
3) Always be prepared no mater what.
The bottom line is that 400+ might not spell danger, but there is always a chance. It is impossible to tell you "yes you are safe with those numbers" no matter what they are unfortunatly.
I have had my motor at ~430 for 2 years now. I do have full bolt on's and stage 2 cams, so my boost levels are a lot lower then most (7.5 psi @ about 5.5k rpms)
Is it safe? Eh. for the first two years I havent even considered it was unsafe. Now that the car has been blown for a while I do have the occosional "I wonder" moments. Like right now. I hear a wierd noise and It makes me wonder "what if". In that sense, I am getting quotes as we speak on a new motor just in case.
advice:
1) Get some kind of heat exchanger... weather it is a FMIC, Air-to-water, meth, whatever.
2) Keep the boost numbers as low as you can (while still obtaining the results you want)
3) Always be prepared no mater what.
The bottom line is that 400+ might not spell danger, but there is always a chance. It is impossible to tell you "yes you are safe with those numbers" no matter what they are unfortunatly.
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