my slow auto Mach 1

blownstang · May 19, 2016

Got the Toyo drag radials on last week. Took the car out for the first time on them last night. Initial thoughts are these tires are great. Mid 50 degree weather with 30psi in them they were hooking up from a 25mph roll on the street. Didnt test any lower than that.

Heading to the track tonight. Im guessing with the unlocked converter Im going to run out of gear with the 25.8" tires. 6200rpm should be about 117-118mph. Im going to bump the rev limiter to 6400rpm and hope i makes it through. I have brand new 275/50/15 Hoosier drag radials that I bought for the track, but if I cant make it through on the Toyos I'll have to sell the Hoosiers and step up to a 27" tire for the track.

My goal was 11.60's with this car, but it will be weighing around 3800lbs with me in it so it might be hard to get there. Also a little concerned about the stock axles since it is hooking so well on the street.

PRODUCTIONMAN · May 19, 2016

Let us know how you do. Would have come out tonight if I knew sooner but had to work late tonight

blownstang · May 20, 2016

Not good at all. They made street tires and drag radials run right lane. Slick only cars ran left lane. I thought slicks and drag radials would run on the same lane. Tune needs to be looked at. I took data logs for my tuner to review but would anyone else be willing to review? Someone who knows what they are looking at. Car spun everytime. Couldnt get the launch right. In an auto when you spin it also throws off the shift points so i have some runs shifting very low and others closer to 6k.

CJackson · May 20, 2016

blownstang said:
Not good at all. They made street tires and drag radials run right lane. Slick only cars ran left lane. I thought slicks and drag radials would run on the same lane. Tune needs to be looked at. I took data logs for my tuner to review but would anyone else be willing to review? Someone who knows what they are looking at. Car spun everytime. Couldnt get the launch right. In an auto when you spin it also throws off the shift points so i have some runs shifting very low and others closer to 6k.

Are your automatic trans parameters needing looked at or just the overall tune? I'll gladly look at them.

sneaky98gt · May 20, 2016

I somehow missed the dyno updates to this thread.

What converter are you running? Why was it not locked up during tuning? And with your concerns about having enough gear, why is it not locked up in the top of 3rd gear at a minimum to get down the track?

Also, depending on what converter is in it, it shouldn't be anywhere near 15% less horsepower on the dyno, at least not once you're well above the stall speed. A locked converter 4R70W is usually around 5% less than a manual. Depending on the converter, most of the well-built aftermarket ones will see efficiency above 95%, with many of them at 97-98%. So worst case scenario, an unlocked auto would see numbers 2-5% lower than a locked auto, and 7-10% lower than a manual. Obviously, those numbers don't hold up at all under the stall speed, or even just a little over it, as it takes some amount of time for the input shaft to come all the way up to speed. But the fact that an unlocked auto can [potentially] keep it in the powerband better means that it could actually trap better than a manual. Just one more bullet point to throw under the "dyno numbers don't really mean ****" list.

That sucks about the track being crap. Have any slips to post? Curious as to how it trapped and what the back halves look like.

You talk about the shift points fluctuating when you spin. That's probably because you are backing off the throttle when it spins (as you should), and then it upshifts when you do that. In the tune, transmission shifting is a function of two variables: throttle position and vehicle speed. Generally speaking, as the throttle position goes down, the vehicle speed at which the upshift occurs also goes down. So when you backed off the throttle, you crossed that point, and it upshifted.

The good news is that that's fixable. You can set it so that your normal WOT upshift speed occurs at any throttle position above xx % (I use 10%). This means that as long as you don't go below 10% throttle when pedaling it, it won't upshift. Obviously, this would make normal street driving difficult, but it works great for the track. Also, the downshift shift points need to be adjusted also if you do this.

The bad news is that the vast majority of tuners out there either don't know how to do little tricks like this, or aren't willing to spend the time on it. So hopefully you've got a good one that is willing to help you out on this stuff. I didn't, and is the reason I started doing my own tuning.

blownstang · May 20, 2016

Can you PM me your email?

blownstang · May 20, 2016

sneaky98gt said:
I somehow missed the dyno updates to this thread.

What converter are you running? Why was it not locked up during tuning? And with your concerns about having enough gear, why is it not locked up in the top of 3rd gear at a minimum to get down the track?

Also, depending on what converter is in it, it shouldn't be anywhere near 15% less horsepower on the dyno, at least not once you're well above the stall speed. A locked converter 4R70W is usually around 5% less than a manual. Depending on the converter, most of the well-built aftermarket ones will see efficiency above 95%, with many of them at 97-98%. So worst case scenario, an unlocked auto would see numbers 2-5% lower than a locked auto, and 7-10% lower than a manual. Obviously, those numbers don't hold up at all under the stall speed, or even just a little over it, as it takes some amount of time for the input shaft to come all the way up to speed. But the fact that an unlocked auto can [potentially] keep it in the powerband better means that it could actually trap better than a manual. Just one more bullet point to throw under the "dyno numbers don't really mean ****" list.

That sucks about the track being crap. Have any slips to post? Curious as to how it trapped and what the back halves look like.

You talk about the shift points fluctuating when you spin. That's probably because you are backing off the throttle when it spins (as you should), and then it upshifts when you do that. In the tune, transmission shifting is a function of two variables: throttle position and vehicle speed. Generally speaking, as the throttle position goes down, the vehicle speed at which the upshift occurs also goes down. So when you backed off the throttle, you crossed that point, and it upshifted.

The good news is that that's fixable. You can set it so that your normal WOT upshift speed occurs at any throttle position above xx % (I use 10%). This means that as long as you don't go below 10% throttle when pedaling it, it won't upshift. Obviously, this would make normal street driving difficult, but it works great for the track. Also, the downshift shift points need to be adjusted also if you do this.

The bad news is that the vast majority of tuners out there either don't know how to do little tricks like this, or aren't willing to spend the time on it. So hopefully you've got a good one that is willing to help you out on this stuff. I didn't, and is the reason I started doing my own tuning.

Single disk Circle D 4c. Thats what they recommended. Asked if there would be a benefit to the multi disk and they said not really at my power level. Would maybe pick up 1-2 mph on the top end. They dont recommend locking the single disk and I also have the stock trans. I dont believe i was lifting as it would spin but not to the point where it would cause it to bounce off the limiter. I dont have the slips on me right now, but from what I remember 60fts were in the 1.9-2.10 range. 1/8 mph was 87-90mph. 1/4 mph was 112-114mph. Best run was 12.73.

I tried stalling it against the brake up to 2krpm, flashing it, and rolling and then flashing it. My shift points were coming in at 5300-5400rpm. I bumped them by 5mph on the last two runs. Car shifted early from spinning on the 1-2, at 4800rpm, and then the 2-3 came on at 5900rpm.

Its also pulling way too much timing i think. Ending runs with 6 degrees at 140F iat.

Can I also email you the logs?

sneaky98gt · May 20, 2016

blownstang said:
Single disk Circle D 4c. Thats what they recommended. Asked if there would be a benefit to the multi disk and they said not really at my power level. Would maybe pick up 1-2 mph on the top end. They dont recommend locking the single disk and I also have the stock trans. I dont believe i was lifting as it would spin but not to the point where it would cause it to bounce off the limiter. I dont have the slips on me right now, but from what I remember 60fts were in the 1.9-2.10 range. 1/8 mph was 87-90mph. 1/4 mph was 112-114mph. Best run was 12.73.

I tried stalling it against the brake up to 2krpm, flashing it, and rolling and then flashing it. My shift points were coming in at 5300-5400rpm. I bumped them by 5mph on the last two runs. Car shifted early from spinning on the 1-2, at 4800rpm, and then the 2-3 came on at 5900rpm.

Its also pulling way too much timing i think. Ending runs with 6 degrees at 140F iat.

Can I also email you the logs?

Ah, yea, I'd be weary locking up a single disk at your power level. It's not likely you'd gain much trap or ET by locking it, but it would help getting a little further down the track without re-gearing.

Sounds like the track was kinda sucking. 1.9 isn't absolutely terrible, but it should do a good bit better with that converter if it'd hook. My 4C with 3.73s and the Eaton cuts 1.57-1.59 fairly regularly on good, cool days. I don't know what gears you're running, but with the significantly less low rpm torque you're making, I don't think you'll do quite that good. Regardless, I think high 1.6s to low 1.7s should be very doable, in which case that's a whole half-second off your ET right there.

I don't really know why spinning would cause it to shift early. There's actually a slight time delay in when the trans is commanded to shift and when it actually does. By spinning, your rpm are increasing faster than when you're hooking, and therefore you'll cover more rpm during that delay, which usually increases the shift point. Not real sure what might be causing that.

Speaking of shift points, those do sound really low. I admittedly don't know as much about the 4-valve motor, but I'm pretty sure they're even more high-rpm-power-happy than a 2-valve is. Combined with a centri blower, I'd think that means you need to have it revving as high as absolutely possible, limited only by the rotating assembly and valvetrain. Aren't even the stock Mach's rev limiter at like 6500 rpm? You're definitely leaving power on the table there.

And lastly, that is virtually no timing. How much boost are you seeing? On my SVO blower, at 12 pounds of non-intercooled boost, I run 10 degrees of timing at 254+ degree IATs (the "+" is there because that's the highest the sensor will read....lol). Depends on the AFR, too, but I wouldn't think you'd ever need to run less than 10-12 degrees. 140 is a little warm for a non-water/meth car, but it's not crazy high. Sounds like the tuner may not have adjusted the ACT spark adder tables. Completely spit-balling here, but at 140 degree IATs, on 12 pounds of boost (guessing), with an 11.5 AFR, with 93 octane, and no water/meth, I'd say it should have around 15 degrees of timing at 6000-6500 rpm. I think it would probably handle more than that, maybe up to 17-18, but 15 would be my conservative guess.

If there is some issue with the spark timing tables, adding 8-10 degrees of timing is going to make a HUGE difference. On my car, I run about 10 degrees max with no water/meth, and then go to around 20-22 degrees with water/meth depending on how hot it is outside, with no other changes to the tune. That 10-12 extra degrees of timing gains me around 10 mph in the 1/4 mile. I'm sure you know this, but that is a LOT. I'd guess you'd easily pick up 7-8 mph if your tune needs 8-10 degrees more timing.

I'd be happy to take a look at the datalogs. I'll shoot you my email. Unfortunately, it'll probably be Monday before I can get around to it.

blownstang · May 20, 2016

sneaky98gt said:
Ah, yea, I'd be weary locking up a single disk at your power level. It's not likely you'd gain much trap or ET by locking it, but it would help getting a little further down the track without re-gearing.

Sounds like the track was kinda sucking. 1.9 isn't absolutely terrible, but it should do a good bit better with that converter if it'd hook. My 4C with 3.73s and the Eaton cuts 1.57-1.59 fairly regularly on good, cool days. I don't know what gears you're running, but with the significantly less low rpm torque you're making, I don't think you'll do quite that good. Regardless, I think high 1.6s to low 1.7s should be very doable, in which case that's a whole half-second off your ET right there.

I don't really know why spinning would cause it to shift early. There's actually a slight time delay in when the trans is commanded to shift and when it actually does. By spinning, your rpm are increasing faster than when you're hooking, and therefore you'll cover more rpm during that delay, which usually increases the shift point. Not real sure what might be causing that.

Speaking of shift points, those do sound really low. I admittedly don't know as much about the 4-valve motor, but I'm pretty sure they're even more high-rpm-power-happy than a 2-valve is. Combined with a centri blower, I'd think that means you need to have it revving as high as absolutely possible, limited only by the rotating assembly and valvetrain. Aren't even the stock Mach's rev limiter at like 6500 rpm? You're definitely leaving power on the table there.

And lastly, that is virtually no timing. How much boost are you seeing? On my SVO blower, at 12 pounds of non-intercooled boost, I run 10 degrees of timing at 254+ degree IATs (the "+" is there because that's the highest the sensor will read....lol). Depends on the AFR, too, but I wouldn't think you'd ever need to run less than 10-12 degrees. 140 is a little warm for a non-water/meth car, but it's not crazy high. Sounds like the tuner may not have adjusted the ACT spark adder tables. Completely spit-balling here, but at 140 degree IATs, on 12 pounds of boost (guessing), with an 11.5 AFR, with 93 octane, and no water/meth, I'd say it should have around 15 degrees of timing at 6000-6500 rpm. I think it would probably handle more than that, maybe up to 17-18, but 15 would be my conservative guess.

If there is some issue with the spark timing tables, adding 8-10 degrees of timing is going to make a HUGE difference. On my car, I run about 10 degrees max with no water/meth, and then go to around 20-22 degrees with water/meth depending on how hot it is outside, with no other changes to the tune. That 10-12 extra degrees of timing gains me around 10 mph in the 1/4 mile. I'm sure you know this, but that is a LOT. I'd guess you'd easily pick up 7-8 mph if your tune needs 8-10 degrees more timing.

I'd be happy to take a look at the datalogs. I'll shoot you my email. Unfortunately, it'll probably be Monday before I can get around to it.

Thank you. No worries. Car is parked till next week until I have time to clean it up. So dyno results were 423/387 at 6140rpm. 11.5 degrees of timing, 11.2 afr, 93 octane. Stock 3.55 gears. Redline on an auto Mach is 5800rpm, just like on the GT. The stick Mach limiter is 6800rpm. Tuner tried to get it shifting around 6k rpm on the dyno, but on the track it would of course be different and he said I'd probably need an adjustment after logging at the track. His goal was to tune it safely and since it was making over 420rwhp through an unlocked converter he didn't want to through more timing in it at this time. This would be equivalent to about 470rwhp through a stick. Usually people say to keep it around 450rwhp through a stick on the stock rotating assembly. My goal was to keep the shift points to 6k, also because of stock trans, and make a little more power. I know on the 4v guys seem to run around 14-15 degrees. The Mach also has 10:1 compression. I was thinking that I really shouldn't be seeing less than 10 degrees of timing with those IATs. On the GT I was running 17 degrees of timing with 12psi on the stock motor. It pulled .25 degrees every 5F increase above 100F and then at 120F it pulled 2 degrees. That was a different tuner, which I may have to go back to if this new tuner I tried for this car is unable to get me squared away. I was a little hesitant in using him, but I spoke to a few guys who didn't have any issues. Guessing these guys didn't take their cars to the track yet. On the street it feels great. I was hoping for 1.7 60fts on these 275/40/17 Toyo drag radials, and 1.60's when I go with the 275/50/15 Hoosier drag radials. I also need to go with a larger catch can. The GT used to mist a little, but there was never any oil in the catch can. The Mach after 4 runs was misting a lot from the catch can filter and the can was almost full. It is a little smaller than a Coke can so I'm guessing it is about 6oz.

sneaky98gt · May 20, 2016

blownstang said:
Thank you. No worries. Car is parked till next week until I have time to clean it up. So dyno results were 423/387 at 6140rpm. 11.5 degrees of timing, 11.2 afr, 93 octane. Stock 3.55 gears. Redline on an auto Mach is 5800rpm, just like on the GT. The stick Mach limiter is 6800rpm. Tuner tried to get it shifting around 6k rpm on the dyno, but on the track it would of course be different and he said I'd probably need an adjustment after logging at the track. His goal was to tune it safely and since it was making over 420rwhp through an unlocked converter he didn't want to through more timing in it at this time. This would be equivalent to about 470rwhp through a stick. Usually people say to keep it around 450rwhp through a stick on the stock rotating assembly. My goal was to keep the shift points to 6k, also because of stock trans, and make a little more power. I know on the 4v guys seem to run around 14-15 degrees. The Mach also has 10:1 compression. I was thinking that I really shouldn't be seeing less than 10 degrees of timing with those IATs. On the GT I was running 17 degrees of timing with 12psi on the stock motor. It pulled .25 degrees every 5F increase above 100F and then at 120F it pulled 2 degrees. That was a different tuner, which I may have to go back to if this new tuner I tried for this car is unable to get me squared away. I was a little hesitant in using him, but I spoke to a few guys who didn't have any issues. Guessing these guys didn't take their cars to the track yet. On the street it feels great. I was hoping for 1.7 60fts on these 275/40/17 Toyo drag radials, and 1.60's when I go with the 275/50/15 Hoosier drag radials. I also need to go with a larger catch can. The GT used to mist a little, but there was never any oil in the catch can. The Mach after 4 runs was misting a lot from the catch can filter and the can was almost full. It is a little smaller than a Coke can so I'm guessing it is about 6oz.

Ooooh ok. I wasn't even considering the fact that it's a stock motor, and you're trying to keep it together. Yea, if that's the case, he may have backed the timing off some to keep it in line.

That said, I still wouldn't be afraid to turn it a little over 6000, unless you're worried about the extra boost. I've turned my to 6500 for years, and no problems.

If you're trying to keep it to around 530 (450 / .85 manual efficiency) engine horsepower, you're probably pretty close where you're at. 530 through an unlocked auto would probably be around 410 on the tires. And 410 on the tires in a car that weighs 3600-3700 pounds should trap around 115-117 mph. That's only a couple mph faster than your 112-114 that you ran last night. Get your shift points set up correctly where it stays up in the power like it should, and I'll bet that will pretty much put you there by itself.

Don't discount your tuner just yet. Contrary to what a lot of people think, it is impossible to get a car dialed in on the dyno, especially an auto. The real story will be how he deals with you going back to him on these issues, and if he addresses them properly. If he does, then you've got a keeper, because most of them won't.

CJackson · May 20, 2016

I ran 17* with my centri setup. That was with 12-13psi. But my iats never got above ambient.

PRODUCTIONMAN · May 20, 2016

Blown, that's too bad on all fronts. GLD is always a crap shoot on track prep and condition. But down to 6 degrees of timing? man that is low. Give that Mach some credit to hold together and get it up to a reasonable range.

blownstang · May 21, 2016

CJackson said:
I ran 17* with my centri setup. That was with 12-13psi. But my iats never got above ambient.

Ya. Thats what i had on the GT with 12psi. Im not sure why, but the iats seem much higher on the Mach than the GT. I dont remember seeing over 120's iats on the GT. Last night was mid 50's ambient.

blownstang · May 21, 2016

PRODUCTIONMAN said:
Blown, that's too bad on all fronts. GLD is always a crap shoot on track prep and condition. But down to 6 degrees of timing? man that is low. Give that Mach some credit to hold together and get it up to a reasonable range.

Ya. I sent everything over to the tuner today with my questions and comments. Since timing is already so low I dont think it is necessary to be pulling anything until 140F.

blownstang · May 24, 2016

What do you guys know about trans torque management? Thinking this might be my issue with the timing being reduced so much. On a stock 4r75w should it be turned off completely or reduced by a certain percentage?

blownstang · Jun 25, 2016

Not really making any good progress. Have loaded three adjustment files in the last month and did some street logging and not seeing much improvement. Torque limiting has been disabled so no more torque source 7 showing up when the car wants to shift. Shifting is all over the place. I don't understand why it is not shifting at the same spot every time if the car has traction. Did a pull yesterday from 57-101mph. 1-2 shifted at 6000rpm, and 2-3 shifted at 5600rpm. Did another pull right after from 40-100mph. 1-2 shifted at 5600rpm and 2-3 shifted at 5300rpm. Torque reduction has been turned off and knock sensor values have been reduced, but something is still reducing the timing. IAT's for both pulls were 80-126F and timing was pinned on 10 degrees. Tuner said he is commanding 13-14 degrees and not pulling any timing until 120F. That is definitely not the case. Another thing I just discovered is if I rev the car up higher in Neutral or Park the rpms will come back down and it will die. This is really aggravating and I am at the end of my patience. I'm giving him one last chance to get this tune right. If not, I will be going back to my old tuner. I went against my gut feeling to choose this guy because he is mechanically very knowledgeable, only 15 miles from my house, but he has only been dyno tuning for a year and street tuned a few cars before that. Old tuner is 90 miles away and has been tuning for 20 years. Little slow sometimes to respond to emails/calls/texts, but the GT ran damn good the 3 times he tuned it over 5 years.

99SilverGTVert · Jun 25, 2016

blownstang said:
Not really making any good progress. Have loaded three adjustment files in the last month and did some street logging and not seeing much improvement. Torque limiting has been disabled so no more torque source 7 showing up when the car wants to shift. Shifting is all over the place. I don't understand why it is not shifting at the same spot every time if the car has traction. Did a pull yesterday from 57-101mph. 1-2 shifted at 6000rpm, and 2-3 shifted at 5600rpm. Did another pull right after from 40-100mph. 1-2 shifted at 5600rpm and 2-3 shifted at 5300rpm. Torque reduction has been turned off and knock sensor values have been reduced, but something is still reducing the timing. IAT's for both pulls were 80-126F and timing was pinned on 10 degrees. Tuner said he is commanding 13-14 degrees and not pulling any timing until 120F. That is definitely not the case. Another thing I just discovered is if I rev the car up higher in Neutral or Park the rpms will come back down and it will die. This is really aggravating and I am at the end of my patience. I'm giving him one last chance to get this tune right. If not, I will be going back to my old tuner. I went against my gut feeling to choose this guy because he is mechanically very knowledgeable, only 15 miles from my house, but he has only been dyno tuning for a year and street tuned a few cars before that. Old tuner is 90 miles away and has been tuning for 20 years. Little slow sometimes to respond to emails/calls/texts, but the GT ran damn good the 3 times he tuned it over 5 years.

Sorry to hear that dude. I hope it works out for you. I know you were originally considering Mike. Is he no longer an option?

CJackson · Jun 25, 2016

Im willing to bet it's the knock sensors pulling spark. The knock sensors on earlier mod motors are very prone to show false knocks. That's the reason the 03/04 cobras didn't have them. The blower increases the noise which intern the knock sensor misinterprets this for knock and begins to pull spark. I would turn the knock sensors off completely.

blownstang · Jun 25, 2016

CJackson said:
Im willing to bet it's the knock sensors pulling spark. The knock sensors on earlier mod motors are very prone to show false knocks. That's the reason the 03/04 cobras didn't have them. The blower increases the noise which intern the knock sensor misinterprets this for knock and begins to pull spark. I would turn the knock sensors off completely.

Just got a file back with the knock sensors turned off, timing locked in the 12-13 range, an IAC adjustment, and a 2-3 shift rpm increase. I know he was trying to play it safe with keeping the factory safety measures like knock sensors and torque limiting on, but that made my 550hp car run like a 450hp car. I might have time to get it out tonight and do some logs.

---------- Post added at 03:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:34 PM ----------

99SilverGTVert said:
Sorry to hear that dude. I hope it works out for you. I know you were originally considering Mike. Is he no longer an option?

He is still an option. My GT ran really well with Tim's tunes so that is why I was putting him first. I think now we might be getting somewhere with the tune file I just received so hopefully my issues will slowly be getting resolved.

blownstang · Jun 28, 2016

Tune didnt do what it was supposed to. With knock sensors off and WOT timing supposedly locked in at 12-13 degrees, it still only saw 10 degrees of timing. Did 2 pulls 40-100mph.

Is it really this difficult to get an auto to shift consistently? On these last two pulls 1-2 shifted at 5300-5400rpm and 2-3 shifted at 5500-5600rpm. If I start the pull at a different mph is it going to change where the car shifts? Every tune file I get the shifting is somewhere else. Im down a few lbs of boost by it not shifting in the 5900-6100rpm range. Tuner said that by completely disabling safety features like torque reduction and knock sensors the shifting isnt going to be consistent. That just doesnt sound right to me. With being out 2 degrees of timing and 2psi the car is down probably around 50rwhp in the higher rpms.

my slow auto Mach 1

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