suspension mods before supercharger

Shottenstar · Jan 20, 2012

My suspension is stock right now. But for dampeners i was looking at bilstein hds and h and r springs if i went springs route.

I was looking under my car and theres a subframe connector already on it, is this just the standard one? I believe verts come with one, correct? If so i plan on changing that out with MM's FLSFC.

blownstang · Jan 20, 2012

You don't need any suspension mods if you are not taking it to the strip. Get the MM frame connectors welded in and you're set. You can do the rest of your suspension whenever. You will not hook on the street with the KB anyway.

Shottenstar · Jan 20, 2012

so if i dont need suspension mods then the next route would be breaking. Is it a must to get a big brake kit or can i just get a set of SS lines, DOT 5 fluid, and some good pads and it will work just fine?

Jazzer The Cat · Jan 20, 2012

Brakes Upgrade ~ Speeding up slowing down :yes

Oh.... I disagree that suspension mods are only for the track. Whether it be the quarter or the quarner, suspension mods help to control a car that can/will exceed the "normal" rate of acceleration. In order of importance, IMO:

Tires
Brakes
Suspension
HP/T upgrades

It is important to have the means to control that added HP, prior to having it :yes

F8L GT · Jan 20, 2012

Jazzer The Cat said:
It is important to have the means to control that added HP, prior to having it :yes

It's about time we agree on something

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using AutoGuide App

Shottenstar · Jan 20, 2012

Jazzer, when you say brakes are SS lines, DOT 5 fluid, and good pads enough or should i get a big brake kit? I know it depends on budget as well but i dont want to get things if i really dont need them. If the supplement is good enough, then im ok with that.

ReverendDexter · Jan 20, 2012

Shottenstar said:
im debating on coilovers or springs. I dont want to pay 1800 for a coilover set up so if i was to do coils i was leaning towards eibach for their coilover set up. Is there much or a difference between coils and springs?

Well, for one, don't do coilovers in the rear for anything but a race car.

For the fronts, if you have good dampers (Bilsteins, Konis, Tokicos), a CO kit from MM is ~$400 with springs. I think Griggs has something similar for a similar price.

Biggest difference most people here notice is adjustable ride height, but when you go COs, you can shed a good amount of weight off the nose between the lighter CO springs and going with tubular A-arms that don't have the spring perch.

If you're going with a tubular k-member, the large majority of them require CO conversions.

Shottenstar said:
My suspension is stock right now. But for dampeners i was looking at bilstein hds and h and r springs if i went springs route.

That would be a good setup, however if you're looking to go torque arm, you'll be replacing the rear springs, and if you go CO you'll be replacing the fronts. So, unless you REALLY want that drop, not really a whole lot of point to replacing springs just yet. Lowering will negatively affect your off-the-line grip, though, as it changes the resting angle of the LCAs to something less ideal.

Shottenstar said:
I was looking under my car and theres a subframe connector already on it, is this just the standard one? I believe verts come with one, correct? If so i plan on changing that out with MM's FLSFC.

Convertibles came with a bolt-on SFC. It's nowhere near as effective as an aftermarket weld-on unit.

Shottenstar said:
so if i dont need suspension mods then the next route would be breaking. Is it a must to get a big brake kit or can i just get a set of SS lines, DOT 5 fluid, and some good pads and it will work just fine?

You'll actually be better with good pads/lines/fluid than you will with a big brake kit. The only functional reason for bigger brakes is to combat heat-related fade; bigger brakes can absorb more heat before they're affected. However, brakes are unsprung weight, and unsprung weight is bad. Really, you want the smallest brakes that are still capable of doing the job (this isn't to say get tiny little brakes, far from it; just that there's disadvantage to going larger than necessary).

03_StangGuy · Jan 20, 2012

Shottenstar said:
my goal is to do front and rear suspension. I just want to get enough suspension work dont for now so when i put the kb on that it will handle the power. In a week or so im going to be getting 18in black saleens and putting some good year tires on it. I dont want uca bc i want to get lca, pb, and a ta to take out the uppers (learned this from reading Jazzers write ups, thanks).
Im also going to lower it when i put the rims on but im debating on coilovers or springs. I dont want to pay 1800 for a coilover set up so if i was to do coils i was leaning towards eibach for their coilover set up. Is there much or a difference between coils and springs?

As far as money goes, i have a couple gs and could save more but i want to do things in the necessary steps. I was thinking doing the rear first then the front and thats where the question of coils or springs come into effect.

In addition, i dont plan on punching it all day every day, just want to be able to not lose traction in the rain or when turning a corner. i also want to be able to take turns and curves like no ones business and know that my car can handle it.
Thanks for all of the input

First off front end suspension isnt gonna help you with grip too much. A lighter front end would help you launch at the track some but the rear is much more important. If your getting new tires look at so DRs now, Nittos 555s are great on the street with their ful tread and long life. The low end torque of a KB is gonna make traction on the street difficult no matter what, good tires are a must.

As for springs, when you do a torque arm, you usually need to replace the rear springs cuz there is much more leverage so you may wanna wait on them.

Lastly forget about traction in the rain or in corners, your gonna have enough trouble when its dry in a straight line. Your gonna have to baby it in the rain so you dont light the tires up all the time. Same with corners, your tires only have some much grip. When you share that grip between cornering and acceleration your gonna reach your limit very easily.

Jazzer The Cat · Jan 20, 2012

F8L GT said:
It's about time we agree on something

Sent from my God I am so insecure AutoGuide App

:shiftyeyes

Shottenstar said:
Jazzer, when you say brakes are SS lines, DOT 5 fluid, and good pads enough or should i get a big brake kit? I know it depends on budget as well but i dont want to get things if i really dont need them. If the supplement is good enough, then im ok with that.

A BBK is NOT needed, but must use DOT 5.1 fluid in your car :yes

Read my brakes guide and will have BETTER overall braking performance than an OEM Cobra. A Cobra would only be slightly better with the upgrades in my guide and benefits are really only going to be moddest on repetative hard braking conditions.

Jazzer

ReverendDexter · Jan 20, 2012

Must use DOT 5/5.1? Not hardly. In fact, you may do harm to your brake system if you use the wrong DOT 4/5/6/whatever fluid (edit: cbjohnson has it on the post below mine - it's just silicon based that's bad).

I use a Castrol DOT 4 LMA fluid. It's plenty of heat capacity for street and autocross driving, and being low-moisture activity, doesn't have to be flushed annually the way a non-LMA fluid does (though it's still a good idea).

cbjohnson9 · Jan 20, 2012

just make sure you go with a quality glycol-ether based brake fluid (DOT 3,4,5.1), not a silicone based fluid (DOT 5).

Wikipedia actually has some pretty good info on it:
Brake fluid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The OEM bolt on SFC's for the verts. are crap... I bent one bottoming out very lightly.

Concerning lowering the car, you need to make the decision if you like the look of a lowered car more, or if you want your suspension to be setup to handle better. Most springs lower the car too much and hinder suspension performance. It just doesn't seem like it when you install them from stock due to the increased spring rate.

This is why H&R race springs don't actually drop the car as much as their super sports. The SS springs actually drop the car too far and throw off certain elements of the suspension...

This is heavily generalized, but optimum suspension geometry for our cars is when the front and rear LCA's are parallel with the ground or pitched upward towards the center of the car for the front LCA's and pitched upward towards the front of the car for the RLCA's.

Jazzer The Cat · Jan 20, 2012

ReverendDexter said:
Must use DOT 5/5.1? Not hardly. In fact, you may do harm to your brake system if you use the wrong DOT 4/5/6/whatever fluid (edit: cbjohnson has it on the post below mine - it's just silicon based that's bad).

I use a Castrol DOT 4 LMA fluid. It's plenty of heat capacity for street and autocross driving, and being low-moisture activity, doesn't have to be flushed annually the way a non-LMA fluid does (though it's still a good idea).

What I meant was DOT 5.1 not DOT 5... my bad

MT0911 · Jan 20, 2012

Jazzer is the man when it comes to suspension and brake/tire setups.

Sub'd for reading later

Jazzer The Cat · Jan 20, 2012

TY

But, I have learned MUCH of what I know from TGR*, as he has more practical experience in most of this stuff than I.

Jazzer

*TGR = The Good Reverend (AKA ReverendDexter)

cbjohnson9 · Jan 20, 2012

Oh I forgot to mention one more thing that tends to come up in threads when someone new begins to modify their car for the twisites.

Typically, people will recommend to drive their car in an actual event prior to modifying their suspension. That way, you can get a feel for how the car handles bone stock and figure out what the car really does when you push it to the limit (more so than just hot dogging it around on the street). Some will say this will make you a better driver by learning how to drive a car that handles relatively poorly. You also get a feel for how you'd like your car to handle. Some like oversteer vs. understeer, etc... That way, when you start modifying the suspension, it can be geared towards how you want the car set up.

The first few mods could probably go ahead and be done (FLSFC's, RLCA's...). But for things like a PHB, I've done autocross events with and without it and it's absolutely amazing how different the SRA feels with and without one installed.

It kind of gives me more justification for blowing the money I spent on it too.

Jazzer The Cat · Jan 20, 2012

You are 100% correct :yes and cannot possibly agree more :no

I only wish I had done it this way myself

I have been MAJOR HARDCORE into the twisties for my entire driving life (just over 30 years now), but did not do my first HPDE day until about 5 years ago. I had lots of experience with the 4-link on both my '85 GT and my '72 Vega, but never in an AX or seriously pushing-it competative event.

The second part of your equasion, is to make sure all the parts installed work well together. One can put great quality springs and wonderful dampers and front/rear sway bars, but if they are not well matched to acheive a balance, the car will ride and/or handle less than would otherwise be expected.

Jazzer

Shottenstar · Jan 21, 2012

This is all very helpful and i appreciate it. Ill start off with the rims, tires, FLSFC, lca's. I also just decided today that im going to throw out the s/c thoughts and go n/a. I dont think i need that much power, I think id be happy with around 350 rwhp if i can acheive that without a motor swap.

Jazzer The Cat · Jan 21, 2012

You can probably get there with some VERY aggressive cams and a few other things, but you are in Cali, as I am, and CANNOT get there smog-legally. I will be in that range, but need to have an 11:1 motor built with TFS heads, just to get close.

Jazzer

MT0911 · Jan 21, 2012

Jazzer The Cat said:
You can probably get there with some VERY aggressive cams and a few other things, but you are in Cali, as I am, and CANNOT get there smog-legally. I will be in that range, but need to have an 11:1 motor built with TFS heads, just to get close.

Jazzer

Yep, since you are in CA it's going to be difficult to get to 350whp while staying smog legal. S/C will still be your best option. It will also be a bit cheaper to go that route.

Shottenstar · Jan 21, 2012

its just that i have like 5 or 6 gs and i want to get the 2.1 kb but install and dyno, plus the rims and some suspension work, all that adds up to more than what i have. I wont have more money saved up til summer. I guess all it takes is patience and to do things in the right order instead of regreting it later.

suspension mods before supercharger

Shottenstar

blownstang

Shottenstar

Jazzer The Cat

F8L GT

Shottenstar

ReverendDexter

03_StangGuy

Jazzer The Cat

ReverendDexter

cbjohnson9

Jazzer The Cat

MT0911

Jazzer The Cat

cbjohnson9

Jazzer The Cat

Shottenstar

Jazzer The Cat

MT0911

Shottenstar

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