probably not much, u should be around 240-250rwhp, do lts, and probably around 13.5 ish with good driving(plz cut better then a 2.4 60ft) and i will constantly suggest pi heads with an after market cam and the thicker head gaskets (since u plan on FI) u will like it much more and with the right tune could possibly see 280-290rwhp and be deep in the 12s... just my suggestion

 

I don't think i am going to do FI on the car. Like i said its my dd and if i sank the cost of a super charger in my DSM then my DSM would eat most Super Charged 4.6. 240 seems low :dunno

 

240 is good for a 96-98 but low for the 99-04's. just get the P.I. heads too along with stage II cams and hit 270-290rwhp with a good tune and call it a day!

 

280-290 with a SC and a tune? thats all? geez these mod motors really are turds

 

280-290 with only a 9psi sc. With more boost u can easily put over 350 to the wheels. But then your going to need to rip apart the internals otherwise your eventually going to fry something.

 

Im wanting around 300 to the wheels, using cams, stock heads, PI intake, boltons and a SC. Seem possible?

 

i meant 280-290 NA.

i think with your stock heads,pi cams, pi intake, and an sc u could see 350rwhp with a safe tune pretty easily.

if 300 is ur goal, stop modding now and save for ur sc, there is nothing else on the earth like a supercharged mustang lol. especially when you already love them, u will love them even more

 

Im wanting around 300 to the wheels, using cams, stock heads, PI intake, boltons and a SC. Seem possible?

That should be fairly easy and reliable, just be sure to get a blower friendly cam. Honestly with a set of stock PI cams and a intake over 300 should be attainable fairly easy. Install the cams at 112* intake centerline rather than 114* and they be a little more blower friendly. On my buddies 97 we installed the pi's at 114* and they really woke up the car out of the hole, on a blower car this may be a little to much and could lead to detonation without a good tune. I have not seen very many blower friendly cams for a npi headed mustang , you could always have a custom set ground.

 

Im wanting around 300 to the wheels, using cams, stock heads, PI intake, boltons and a SC. Seem possible?

That should be fairly easy and reliable, just be sure to get a blower friendly cam. Honestly with a set of stock PI cams and a intake over 300 should be attainable fairly easy. Install the cams at 112* intake centerline rather than 114* and they be a little more blower friendly. On my buddies 97 we installed the pi's at 114* and they really woke up the car out of the hole, on a blower car this may be a little to much and could lead to detonation without a good tune. I have not seen very many blower friendly cams for a npi headed mustang , you could always have a custom set ground.

well in short, npi heads are not worth it, they dont leave enough room for change in the future... i would just get some blower friendly cams and pi heads(youll thank me later if you do) because after u start modding and feel the 300 hp in your own car, u will want more, i guarantee it.

 

Im wanting around 300 to the wheels, using cams, stock heads, PI intake, boltons and a SC. Seem possible?

That should be fairly easy and reliable, just be sure to get a blower friendly cam. Honestly with a set of stock PI cams and a intake over 300 should be attainable fairly easy. Install the cams at 112* intake centerline rather than 114* and they be a little more blower friendly. On my buddies 97 we installed the pi's at 114* and they really woke up the car out of the hole, on a blower car this may be a little to much and could lead to detonation without a good tune. I have not seen very many blower friendly cams for a npi headed mustang , you could always have a custom set ground.

well in short, npi heads are not worth it, they dont leave enough room for change in the future... i would just get some blower friendly cams and pi heads(youll thank me later if you do) because after u start modding and feel the 300 hp in your own car, u will want more, i guarantee it.

I know you don't want to begin the discussion about what the difference in the heads are with me :crazy . First of all these heads are all I work on to improve both PI and NPI, now I have even moved into working on Svo heads. You can continue to believe what you are told or what read read in your magazines. Spend the same amount of money on each head in porting and valve work and you will see the npi far betters the P.I accrossed the board. Sure you can focus all you want on cfm numbers (the amount of air that is moved thru the runner) however that doesn't show a working power making cylinder head.

So my challenge disprove the numbers I have, show me the intake pulse charges from a P.I head and velocity. As I always move the topic to, if the P.I is so great why did frpp make the svo head from the npi casting. We all know the Svo heads out of the box outf;ow and out perform almost all ported heads (P.I).

Evenyullay I will talk Casper into allowing me to get a sticky showing these numbers from not only my source but many others that have proven the facts I am stating. LOL, no need I have noth ing to prove, more like the P.I people need to prove their "theories".

Even stock the number are so close you can't base a decision of what is better. People talk about the intake port mismatch, it has been show and documented that a minor mismatch will actually help with a restricted air intake system by altering the intake air pulses to produce 4-7 rwhp gains. Not something I made up at all, most NASCAR teams do this on their restrictor plate motors to increase or overcome the smaller plate openings.

Yes the P.I intake runners have a little more area that can be removed but also suffer from a horrible short side radius at the troat area and show a large turbulance and velocity lose when ported wrong. The small turn on the entry area to the throat also hinders the direct path to the bowl area. I short you would have to add material to a P.I head to make it flow the high lift numbers the npi's are capible of.

With a little more engineering time ford could have produced a much better alternative to the P.I head, under the deadlines and time restraints they used what worked.

Reading up on the Laws of continuity have changed many peoples train of thought.

 

i never said the pis flow better then npis anywhere(if i did i didnt mean to) what my theory is that the npis dont leave much of any room to grow, as far as the aftermarket parts go, the pis will always be surperior as for that. i would love to see these flow numbers and what not(i dont doubt they exist) i just will continue to remain firm with what i say regaurdless of the flow numbers, and charts until i see npi cars out there showing the evidence...anyway its late, i probably shouldnt be typing i gotta be early but its blah...

 

i meant 280-290 NA.

i think with your stock heads,pi cams, pi intake, and an sc u could see 350rwhp with a safe tune pretty easily.

if 300 is ur goal, stop modding now and save for ur sc, there is nothing else on the earth like a supercharged mustang lol. especially when you already love them, u will love them even more

Yeah I havnet bought any mods, except the subframes and 4.10s i just put in. Gonna save up to do the SC next tax season.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i never said the pis flow better then npis anywhere(if i did i didnt mean to) what my theory is that the npis dont leave much of any room to grow, as far as the aftermarket parts go, the pis will always be surperior as for that. i would love to see these flow numbers and what not(i dont doubt they exist) i just will continue to remain firm with what i say regaurdless of the flow numbers, and charts until i see npi cars out there showing the evidence...anyway its late, i probably shouldnt be typing i gotta be early but its blah...

What ? The Npi vs. PI heads could go on for EVAH. But it wont. Im along with Boomer and i like npi's as well. How and what kinda of information can you use to backup that PI's have more room to grow ? Aftermarket parts? What kinda aftermarket parts will you put on PI cars that you cant do Npi cars ? And if you PI head a NPI car, you cant boost as much as a Npi car.

I cant wait for this to blow up.... opcorn

 

Everyone I'e talked to that have PI heads say they never regret it. I'm actually doing it myself. But it DOES depend on what your total outcome of the car will be. You said you're not going to FI it. Then go with the PI's. Since you don't have to worry about the higher compression causing problems (b/c again, you're not FI) then that extra power you get from having the PI heads wouldn't hurt. But I agree with casper...This debate could go on forever.

 

WHY....Thats the main thing here i wanna know.

WHY do you think PI own Npis.

You need to backup why you think they are superoir and where you got the information.

How are they better in the long run ?

 

WHY....Thats the main thing here i wanna know.

WHY do you think PI own Npis.

You need to backup why you think they are superoir and where you got the information.

How are they better in the long run ?

in the long run? look at intake manifolds, u cant put pis on npis without modification (i dont wanna do alot of fab work for 10hp do u) u cant put certain pi cams in npi without port jobs (that sucks, i want a good streetfriendly cam not no lift over .500) hp from the pi swap is around 45-50 rwhp to the wheels (correct, if the pi swap only boost the extra from compression, y bother with the low compression gaskets? im thinking they give horsepower from more then just compression) but the pi intake to cam swap ive seen give best 35 rwhp dyno tuned (last i checked 15-20 hp could easily be .5 sec in the quarter...) but the reason y i believe pis are better is just like it was stated above, every1 who does the swap say they LOVE it reguardless, they will do it again, and alot of people who do the intake and cams claim they wish they woulda just done the heads too. im looking for the most power outta my stang, not nickle and diming parts, i think the pi swap with a nice size turbo is what will be coming within the next year :hug

 

o0o and flow charts and what not dont mean much, without a dyno graph of the npis vs pis i could care less... i dont mean to completely bash npis in general but im just saying the pis are worth the 300 dollars you may spend on them in the long run...

 

o0o and flow charts and what not dont mean much, without a dyno graph of the npis vs pis i could care less... i dont mean to completely bash npis in general but im just saying the pis are worth the 300 dollars you may spend on them in the long run...

:funnah :lmao
I will tell you you are a complete utter MORON. The "claims" you make show you have little to no knowledge about these motors.
I have seen a guy bolt on a P.I intake and cams with a tune pick up 48 rwhp. The only true gain with the P.I head is the compression bump due to a smaller combustion chamber.
To say a flow chart doesn't mean much is like saying John force should run a V-tec. A dyno is a instrument used to tune a vehicle to achieve optimal performance, just because one car makes more than another doesn't mean it will be faster. How the power is put down to the ground is what makes a car fast.

FACTS !!!!!!!
1 . bolting on the P.I intake is worth 15-20 rwhp average
2 bolting on the P.I cam is wrth another 15-25 rwhp
3 The little bit of rtv it takes to install the intake will not leak, for that matter a little tig welding would be 100% insurance of no leaks.
4 the compression bump from the P.I head is worth 5-10 rwhp
YOU HAVE YET TO POST ONE FACT, BUT CONTINUE TO POST OPINIONS

Now that I've had to put you over my knee like a 4 year old a give you a verbal whooping, shut your pie hole.

 

o0o and flow charts and what not dont mean much, without a dyno graph of the npis vs pis i could care less... i dont mean to completely bash npis in general but im just saying the pis are worth the 300 dollars you may spend on them in the long run...

:funnah :lmao
I will tell you you are a complete utter MORON. The "claims" you make show you have little to no knowledge about these motors.
I have seen a guy bolt on a P.I intake and cams with a tune pick up 48 rwhp. The only true gain with the P.I head is the compression bump due to a smaller combustion chamber.
To say a flow chart doesn't mean much is like saying John force should run a V-tec. A dyno is a instrument used to tune a vehicle to achieve optimal performance, just because one car makes more than another doesn't mean it will be faster. How the power is put down to the ground is what makes a car fast.

FACTS !!!!!!!
1 . bolting on the P.I intake is worth 15-20 rwhp average
2 bolting on the P.I cam is wrth another 15-25 rwhp
3 The little bit of rtv it takes to install the intake will not leak, for that matter a little tig welding would be 100% insurance of no leaks.
4 the compression bump from the P.I head is worth 5-10 rwhp
YOU HAVE YET TO POST ONE FACT, BUT CONTINUE TO POST OPINIONS

Now that I've had to put you over my knee like a 4 year old a give you a verbal whooping, shut your pie hole.

show me dyno graphs i say flow charts dont mean much because without the dyno graph backing them up showing the differences it doesnt. i never said i knew everything i just know a few things, fact pi intake has been prove 18 rwhp fact pi cams has been proven 15rwhp (thats the best ive ever seen show me different) fact, the little bit of rtv that you all keep talking about still allowed my intake to leak showing that it can still happen with the rtv. and dyno numbers dont mean ****, im looking at the graphs im looking at track times and what not, flow charts havnt been backed up enough with a cam suitible for what im going for and what most others are going for PERIOD u know that and i know that, on a budget (like most of us) the pi heads will remain surperior, THATS A FVCKING Fact for the books, ur chart as stated b4 doesnt make sense to most of the people on this board, im stating facts that its not even a comparison for aftermarket as far as pi vs npi. i never wanted a debate, just wanted that to be put out there, u r gunna continue to believe what u want to when saying "omg npis are so much better because they so like flow so much better then so like pis do whent they are so ported"( :lmao ) but in reality the track times are what matters.

ps i know the comp cams 262s and 270s both have a lift of .500 so lets not get into a knowledge debate, they are simply not for my setup and not for many others. (even though they are a good street cam)

but lets look at some more dyno numbers shall we, lets see a npi mustang with the pi intake and comp cams 262s with boltons and a tune will have what 255-260 rwhp (some1 back me up on this i know thats pretty accurate) but a pi car with the same cams and bolons will put down 270 -280 rwhp, i cant believe there is arguement over more horsepower :blah

like said b4 this debate can go on all day, y dont we end it with saying to each his own

 

in the long run? look at intake manifolds, u cant put pis on npis without modification (i dont wanna do alot of fab work for 10hp do u) u cant put certain pi cams in npi without port jobs (that sucks, i want a good streetfriendly cam not no lift over .500) hp from the pi swap is around 45-50 rwhp to the wheels (correct, if the pi swap only boost the extra from compression, y bother with the low compression gaskets? im thinking they give horsepower from more then just compression) but the pi intake to cam swap ive seen give best 35 rwhp dyno tuned (last i checked 15-20 hp could easily be .5 sec in the quarter...) but the reason y i believe pis are better is just like it was stated above, every1 who does the swap say they LOVE it reguardless, they will do it again, and alot of people who do the intake and cams claim they wish they woulda just done the heads too. im looking for the most power outta my stang, not nickle and diming parts, i think the pi swap with a nice size turbo is what will be coming within the next year

I thought i was gonna let into you...looks like the person before me did as well..

You show how much you know by youre constant posting and misinformation.

So here goes. You talk about alot of "fab" work in order to achieve a PI intake on Npi heads. Its not ALOT you have to swap out parts which include, manifold, gaskets, and pi coolant tube so it fits. The only thing "so called fab" work is the silicone. But like many others have found, just weld up the hole a little more and you have perfect sealant. So so much for that.

Why install low compression head gaskets? Youre running into high compression issues and which you install high compression gaskets and use better head bolts to not run into head lift, because they will with TTY ford bolts.

The reason you think PIs are better is because everyone thought to themselves...wow i can put the PI parts on my NPI block and gain 50rwhp. So thats why everyone does it. NOT many people which i am including myself thought...hey lets see how these heads flow with and without head work. And see whats the REAL problem with this Npi ****. Its the intake and the cams which restrict everything. So some "DYNO" chart searching for youreself...Stock PI vs. Stock Npi with PI intake and cams. See how exactly close or in some cases more so on each other. And if you want DYNO charts because you think for some reason its the only way to show power....then do a search for pi and npi dyno charts with the heads flowing. So thats youre reason....because everyoe you know said they would do it again.....

NOT ME. Everyone i know says its a nice kick in the pants...but for the NICKLE AND DIME'ING ( because THATS WHAT YOURE DOING with heads from another vehicle and intake.....youre doing the same as someone would do except including the heads. ) They all say they want more power now and with the high compression its a waste and a ticking time bomb. They say they wished they would have went straight PI motor. They also say it was a pain in the ass swap and ran into many problems. I can say thats just the person doing it because its not a bad swap.


Now with all this said, youre talking about how nice youre PI swap is gonna be with a nice turbo on top of it all....I WANT you to do this and then tell me how much power you make with it all and how long it lasts. K
If you REALLY wanted a badass stang like you say...PI ( FACTORY ) equipment wouldnt be where you started....it would be in the block. Then on to heads, cams and another intake NOT a PI. BEcause thats what people who dont wanna NICKLE AND DIME things do.

Alot of learning you need my friend. :wave

 

the little bit of rtv that you all keep talking about still allowed my intake to leak showing that it can still happen with the rtv

:lmao :lmao Its all in the person doing the work. Clearly youres SHOULD have leaked.

track times... i beat up on PI cars everytime at the track. Thats with PI cams. Im running X-pipe, catback, underdrives, coil packs and wires and PI intake. Im running a 13.87@99mphs right now. Without PI cams. Those are my track times. I will have dyno numbers comming up. Just think if i had NPI's with some decent work done to them.

 

in the long run? look at intake manifolds, u cant put pis on npis without modification (i dont wanna do alot of fab work for 10hp do u) u cant put certain pi cams in npi without port jobs (that sucks, i want a good streetfriendly cam not no lift over .500) hp from the pi swap is around 45-50 rwhp to the wheels (correct, if the pi swap only boost the extra from compression, y bother with the low compression gaskets? im thinking they give horsepower from more then just compression) but the pi intake to cam swap ive seen give best 35 rwhp dyno tuned (last i checked 15-20 hp could easily be .5 sec in the quarter...) but the reason y i believe pis are better is just like it was stated above, every1 who does the swap say they LOVE it reguardless, they will do it again, and alot of people who do the intake and cams claim they wish they woulda just done the heads too. im looking for the most power outta my stang, not nickle and diming parts, i think the pi swap with a nice size turbo is what will be coming within the next year

I thought i was gonna let into you...looks like the person before me did as well..

You show how much you know by youre constant posting and misinformation.

So here goes. You talk about alot of "fab" work in order to achieve a PI intake on Npi heads. Its not ALOT you have to swap out parts which include, manifold, gaskets, and pi coolant tube so it fits. The only thing "so called fab" work is the silicone. But like many others have found, just weld up the hole a little more and you have perfect sealant. So so much for that.

Why install low compression head gaskets? Youre running into high compression issues and which you install high compression gaskets and use better head bolts to not run into head lift, because they will with TTY ford bolts.

The reason you think PIs are better is because everyone thought to themselves...wow i can put the PI parts on my NPI block and gain 50rwhp. So thats why everyone does it. NOT many people which i am including myself thought...hey lets see how these heads flow with and without head work. And see whats the REAL problem with this Npi ****. Its the intake and the cams which restrict everything. So some "DYNO" chart searching for youreself...Stock PI vs. Stock Npi with PI intake and cams. See how exactly close or in some cases more so on each other. And if you want DYNO charts because you think for some reason its the only way to show power....then do a search for pi and npi dyno charts with the heads flowing. So thats youre reason....because everyoe you know said they would do it again.....

NOT ME. Everyone i know says its a nice kick in the pants...but for the NICKLE AND DIME'ING ( because THATS WHAT YOURE DOING with heads from another vehicle and intake.....youre doing the same as someone would do except including the heads. ) They all say they want more power now and with the high compression its a waste and a ticking time bomb. They say they wished they would have went straight PI motor. They also say it was a pain in the ass swap and ran into many problems. I can say thats just the person doing it because its not a bad swap.


Now with all this said, youre talking about how nice youre PI swap is gonna be with a nice turbo on top of it all....I WANT you to do this and then tell me how much power you make with it all and how long it lasts. K
If you REALLY wanted a badass stang like you say...PI ( FACTORY ) equipment wouldnt be where you started....it would be in the block. Then on to heads, cams and another intake NOT a PI. BEcause thats what people who dont wanna NICKLE AND DIME things do.

Alot of learning you need my friend. :wave

actually casper i never came on here to argue, i came on here to speak what knowledge i do have on the pi vs npi, bolt for bolt pi comes on top correct? we all know this, im not nickle and dimeing it, im actually supposed to be on my way to go pick up a new block that ima be tearing into for such build i speak of... i dont think pis i better because of the general consensus, i think they are better because they work, and have been proven to work time after time again, where as the pi intake and cams do work (never said they didnt) but they dont put down the same power numbers. take it from some1 who has done the intake swap 6 times and experienced different problems each time. its not worth it to me in the long run, if im gunna be in there y not get the most power outta it

 

the little bit of rtv that you all keep talking about still allowed my intake to leak showing that it can still happen with the rtv

:lmao :lmao Its all in the person doing the work. Clearly youres SHOULD have leaked.

track times... i beat up on PI cars everytime at the track. Thats with PI cams. Im running X-pipe, catback, underdrives, coil packs and wires and PI intake. Im running a 13.87@99mphs right now. Without PI cams. Those are my track times. I will have dyno numbers comming up. Just think if i had NPI's with some decent work done to them.

and i beat pi cars completely npi (x pie and catback) and i followed ur install actually, and discovered after driving the car with the pi intake it does allow it to pull up to 6k but u dont get the same power the pi cars do.my best track time in my car with xpipe catback and k&n filter is 14.4 @ 97 mph, now think if i had the basic pi equipment and drag radials :wave

 

im also looking around for the guy on corral that was looking for more power outta his boosted car, did the head swap and gained 110rwhp at the same boost numbers... just showing pi heads will do well with boost

 

All good points. But you or even me for that matter cant find graphs on the internet anywhere ( because no one has posted ) showing how the pi and npis flow with dyno charts proving either of them are better.

And of course NPi with cams and intake will not yield more than a full PI car due to the heads giving up 5-10rwhp. So that is a straight fact that you gave and i will commend you on it.

But i have done coutless swaps without heads and people were happy and NOT a single one leaks. Im sorry but its youre own personal error.

And of course they will gain with PI swap with a boosted car. BUT.... a Npi s/c or turbo kit wont come with more than 6 or 8 psi 9 tops. And thats safe. for a certain amount of time. If you understand compression ratios and understand boost then you will agree with everything im stating.

If youre building a block then why even agrue about Comression in youre statements ? BEcause if you are building a block then i would hope you swap out the pistons for better ones. And that will yield a lower compression number because you will turbo it.

The more you say the more that youre ealier agruments dont make sense. Why even bring up compression if none of it will harm you? PI equipment on youre built block and turbo car is bottom of the barrel and will not yield the best numbers strictly due to flow. Youre talking about why not get the most power out of it and then youre talking about how youre gonna use FACTORY equipment ( PI ).

Just doesnt make sence... :dunno