Putting the NO THERMOSTAT debate to rest

The Cheeks McDuke · May 24, 2012

WickedSnake00 said:
My bigger concern would be in engine wear. Your engine as a whole will not warm up as fast, because what little heat you make is getting dumped to the ambient via the radiator, rather than recirculating to the pump inlet. Colder engine temps mean looser tolerances and non-ideal lubricating conditions. Do you think people warm their cars up just for funsies?

Did I not say this a couple pages ago?

izzy1111 · May 24, 2012

WickedSnake00 said:
And your car has not demonstrated efficiency by any means of scientific measurement.

Removing the thermostat is prolonging your warm up cycle, which is prolonging your "cold" fueling state.

1.- My bigger concern would be in engine wear. Your engine as a whole will not warm up as fast, because what little heat you make is getting dumped to the ambient via the radiator, rather than recirculating to the pump inlet. Colder engine temps mean looser tolerances and non-ideal lubricating conditions. Do you think people warm their cars up just for funsies?

2.- Not to mention your underdrives would be harming you. Less flow = less heat rejection. Not only this but the lower velocity increases dwell time in the cylinder heads before exit, which can create hot spots and damage cylinders or induce detonation.

3.- Maybe if your outside temperatures were 180deg F I would believe it being useless. But you still have at the minimum an 80deg delta from key on before you're warmed up.

4.- If you want efficiency, why don't you improve the cooling package? That would be a lot more efficient than going "Hey, I took out the thermostat! It gets 40mpg now!"

Almost every concern you pointed out in your post goes contrary or conflicts with what everyone as expressed would happen without a thermostat. So what is it? How come no one can make up their mind? Could it be that you guys are just talking in theory but no one has actualy put this in practice.

1.- That was why I made the video to show that engine warms up just slightly a little slower than a car with a thermostat. Any wear to the engine would be almost the same as a car with a thermostat. There is not a huge warmup difference, plus it operates at a slightly cooler temp when driving.

2.- Everyone has expressed that because I have no thermostat, the flow is too fast for the coolant to do its job at absorbing engine heat and expelling it in the radiator. Since I mentioned that I have underdrives and the flow is slower, the coolant has a chance to do its heat transfering job. NOW YOU are saying that because I have a slower flow, the coolant will not be able to do its job effectively, which contradicts everyone else here that has expressed having a faster flow will hurt engine cooling. SO WHICH ONE IS IT?

3.- Ambient temperature is the starting point, with the engine generating it own heat, the coolant easily rises quickly when driving normally with no different major effects than a car with a thermostat. This has already been discussed.

4.- I NEVER said removing your thermostat will give you 40mpg. The main reason why I removed mine was for a cooler driving temp and an easier burden on the slower rotating waterpump to deliver a flow, because of my underdrives.

WickedSnake00 · May 24, 2012

The Cheeks McDuke said:
Did I not say this a couple pages ago?

Doesn't make it any less valid. :tomato

izzy1111 said:
Almost every concern you pointed out in your post goes contrary or conflicts with what everyone as expressed would happen without a thermostat. So what is it? How come no one can make up their mind? Could it be that you guys are just talking in theory but no one has actualy put this in practice.

1.- That was why I made the video to show that engine warms up just slightly a little slower than a car with a thermostat. Any wear to the engine would be almost the same as a car with a thermostat. There is not a huge warmup difference, plus it operates at a slightly cooler temp when driving.

2.- Everyone has expressed that because I have no thermostat, the flow is too fast for the coolant to do its job at absorbing engine heat and expelling it in the radiator. Since I mentioned that I have underdrives and the flow is slower, the coolant has a chance to do its heat transfering job. NOW YOU are saying that because I have a slower flow, the coolant will not be able to do its job effectively, which contradicts everyone else here that has expressed having a faster flow will hurt engine cooling. SO WHICH ONE IS IT?

3.- Ambient temperature is the starting point, with the engine generating it own heat, the coolant easily rises quickly when driving normally with no different major effects than a car with a thermostat. This has already been discussed.

4.- I NEVER said removing your thermostat will give you 40mpg. The main reason why I removed mine was for a cooler driving temp and an easier burden on the slower rotating waterpump to deliver a flow, because of my underdrives.

1.) I saw no engine coolant out, or water pump in temps being datalogged, and I highly doubt you instrumented it with thermocouples. Nor did I see a baseline of a with thermostat case.

2.) Localized. Pump spins slower, coolant moves slower through the heads. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Do you want high temperature water just hanging out in your heads, or do you want it moving to the radiator?

3.) Yes, major effects. With a thermostat you are NOT rejecting heat from the whole radiator circuit. Thus Engine Coolant Out is approximately equal to water pump in. With no thermostat there's a large loss of energy between the two. Swing and a miss.

4.) Sarcasm. It needs a font.

izzy1111 · May 24, 2012

WickedSnake00 said:
My bigger concern would be in engine wear. Your engine as a whole will not warm up as fast, because what little heat you make is getting dumped to the ambient via the radiator, rather than recirculating to the pump inlet. Colder engine temps mean looser tolerances and non-ideal lubricating conditions. Do you think people warm their cars up just for funsies?

Also how is the heat going to get dumped onto the ambient via the radiator? If at start-ups there is no air being blown through the radiator at all during idle, because the fan shouldn't be on to blow air through. Also at normal traffic driving speeds after a cold start-up, the engine will produce more heat faster than air can penetrate the AC condenser and then the radiator effectively cool down any coolant in the radiator.

WickedSnake00 · May 24, 2012

izzy1111 said:
Also how is the heat going to get dumped onto the ambient via the radiator? If at start-ups there is no air being blown through the radiator at all during idle, because the fan shouldn't be on to blow air through. Also at normal traffic driving speeds after a cold start-up, the engine will produce more heat faster than air can penetrate the AC condenser and then the radiator effectively cool down any coolant in the radiator.

Do you have any science background? Just because you don't have 60mph wind at 10deg F going across the radiator doesn't mean you aren't dumping heat. It's warmer than the ambient, thus it will lose thermal energy to the environment.

And I call complete and total horseshit on the air can't penertrate the A/C condenser. I run cooling tests as part of my job, and even 15mph air at 90deg F is sufficient to cool a vehicle running wide open.

Bringing a knife to a gun fight are we? :swordfight:

izzy1111 · May 24, 2012

60mph is highway speeds, I said normal traffic speeds 30-40mph and idle stops. I would never take my car on the highway right after a cold start-up, thats asking for a breakdown.

airmike · May 24, 2012

pelle15 said:
so your saying a thermostat is useless at 110*, god those manufactures that spend millions of dollars on producing cars are so stupid. You know better than them :facepalm:

Not taking sides in this stupid debate that is not being verified anyway. BUT, the statement "god those stupid manufactures? that spend millions of dollars on producing cars are so stupid." The manufacturers make a car to fit multiple owners and situations. They don't make "the best combination" for any one single application. That is why tuners are in business. Not because they are smarter than "those stupid manufactures", they zero in on your particular likes, needs etc..

This guy may be a genius or moron, either way he is only trying to zero in on his personal likes, needs. If people were afraid to try different things we would still be riding horses. Einstein failed many times and no doubt heard the people that KNEW he was wasting time tell him so. I think I'll go out to the shop and put a blower on my lawnmower now. lol

izzy1111 · May 24, 2012

WickedSnake00 said:
And I call complete and total horseshit on the air can't penertrate the A/C condenser. I run cooling tests as part of my job, and even 15mph air at 90deg F is sufficient to cool a vehicle running wide open.

Bringing a knife to a gun fight are we? :swordfight:

Now im no expert, but I believe there is a great difference with air being pushed into a system at a certain speed, than as a system itself crashing into the air at a certain speed. Think aerodymanics, a car going through the air will try to dispel the air in front of it (not welcome it), than if the fan on the radiator or external fan were pushing air directly into the radiator.

WickedSnake00 · May 25, 2012

airmike said:
This guy may be a genius or moron, either way he is only trying to zero in on his personal likes, needs. If people were afraid to try different things we would still be riding horses. Einstein failed many times and no doubt heard the people that KNEW he was wasting time tell him so. I think I'll go out to the shop and put a blower on my lawnmower now. lol

Wouldn't it be easier to sell the thermostat as a "cold weather package" then? That's what they do with diesels.

And there's a different between grasping at straws by just ripping out parts and designing.

You can slap together a bunch of random parts and call yourself an innovator, but the ones making the progress are the ones that start at a drawing board and put in the necessary study and calculations.

izzy1111 said:
Now im no expert, but I believe there is a great difference with air being pushed into a system at a certain speed, than as a system itself crashing into the air at a certain speed. Think aerodymanics, a car going through the air will try to dispel the air in front of it (not welcome it), than if the fan on the radiator or external fan were pushing air directly into the radiator.

By that logic shouldn't the aerospace industry just throw out all of their wind tunnels?

Here's the best analogy I can think of-
Pulling out the thermostat is like going back to direct drive fans. Part of the feature of electric fans is that you don't cool the radiator when you don't need to. That's what removing the thermostat is doing, cooling it when it doesn't need it. It's basically a technological step backward.

Honestly, look at how long guys with diesels let their trucks warm up. Do you think they could benefit from no thermostats?

What about the head gasket? You'd put lots of stress on it if you romp on it before it's up to temperature.

izzy1111 · May 25, 2012

Did you skip all the posts? Everything your putting has already been discussed. Im not repeating myself how well my engine reaches operating temps without a problem.

And yes thats a flaw in windtunnels. Forcing air towards a car is not as accurate as the actual car driving through real world freely idle standing air. Why cause real world air is semi-stationary as the car moves through it, not pushing air through a stationary car. Yes you may get the same "effect" but you will not get as true real world results.

Yes these comanies are stupid and wasting their time, money and knowledge (wheres the sarcasm button on this keyboard)

WickedSnake00 · May 25, 2012

izzy1111 said:
Did you skip all the posts? Everything your putting has already been discussed. Im not repeating myself how well my engine reaches operating temps without a problem.

And yes thats a flaw in windtunnels. Forcing air towards a car is not as accurate as the actual car driving through real world freely idle standing air. Why cause real world air is semi-stationary as the car moves through it, not pushing air through a stationary car. Yes you may get the same "effect" but you will not get as true real world results.

You're asserting that it reaches operating temps with no problem based on a single car with a single parameter. That is not science. You'd need a hell of a lot more channels, more runs, and a baseline at the very least. Until then, I am unconvinced.

Two, if you know so much about wind tunnels you should write to NASA and let them know they've been doing it wrong all these years.

Let's make it into a simpler analogy for reference frames. Replace air with a ball. Would you expect different results from throwing a ball at 30mph at a stationary car versus a car hitting a ball at 30mph? It's all reference frames. The interaction still occurs at the same speed, but your "stationary" reference changes.

I'm honestly very skeptical of these claims, and still fail to see significant science and experimental data to back them up.

izzy1111 · May 25, 2012

WickedSnake00 said:
You're asserting that it reaches operating temps with no problem based on a single car with a single parameter. That is not science. You'd need a hell of a lot more channels, more runs, and a baseline at the very least. Until then, I am unconvinced.

I'm honestly very skeptical of these claims, and still fail to see significant science and experimental data to back them up.

Well atleast we can agree that one car, my car, does accomplish these expectations for a car to operate. Thats all I care about and really the only thing I intended to show. What did I accomplish to show with "my" car:

That the O2 sensors turn on independently from coolant temperatures. Reflecting in well AFR for good mileage.

That engine temperatures are still achieved for normal operation.

That driving temperature do run slighter cooler.

Basicly the issue of not having a thermostat was a huge problem with people not accepting that I am capable of producing my gas mileage. THAT WAS THE MAIN PURPOSE FOR THIS THREAD.

WickedSnake00 · May 25, 2012

izzy1111 said:
Well atleast we can agree that one car, my car, does accomplish these expectations for a car to operate. Thats all I car about and really the only thing I intended to show. What did I accomplish to show with "my" car:

That the O2 sensors turn on independently from coolant temperatures. Reflecting in well AFR for good mileage.

That engine temperatures are achieved for normal operation.

That driving temperatures run slighter cooler.

1.) HOS's have their own independent heating element. If they don't reach temperature there's something grossly long.

2.) Anything will reach equilibrium eventually. Time is the element we need to examine here.

3.) Has no real bearing.

I don't think these any significant conclusions you can draw. To draw significant conclusions you would need a lot more data points. Until then I would hold your horses.

EDIT: Didn't see your comment about gas milage. I still think you have a similar problem in not having enough data for fuel economy. Not to mention a serious lack of modifications that would create a large impact.

izzy1111 · May 25, 2012

Well number 1 and 2 was like blasphemy to some of the members here when I would tell them this.

Atleast there has been some kind of enlightenment lol

slonison · May 25, 2012

Is this still going on? Unsubbed. So I won't see any response to this commnet :bubba

maximusneo701 · May 25, 2012

I had a pontiac that the thermostat got stuck open. So bad as the engine temp would never go beyond 150F and it is supposed to operate around 170-210. Needless to say when fixing it I saw a good gas mileage increase, plus my heat worked again in the winter. A winter without a heater is rough.

Engines are designed to be efficient at a certain temp range so its best to operate them for the range they are designed for.

01Sportchic · May 25, 2012

I'm not going to read all the arguing, just wanted to hop in to say I'm with you, izzy! After reading your original post making the ambient temps clear, I completely agree.

I have been running without a thermostat in my Cobra for years, now. Living down here in Fla, it gets pretty ridiculously hot. I would have to shut my car off in stop and go traffic because it would come close to overheating, here is an example:

We tried a couple easy fixes, but didn't work. I wasn't about to go out and buy a larger radiator...not sure how much that would have helped, so we removed the t-stat. Since removing it, the engine temp never goes higher than mid gauge. We got a temp on it a little over a year ago on the dyno while tuning it with the turbo, and I want to say it stayed pretty well at around 190*...I can't remember exactly, but it was running nice and cool (ambient temps in the building were probably around high 70's, it was in the low 60's outside). My car has been down since December because of the transmission, but not including this down time it's been running great making over 450rwhp as my daily driver with no engine problems at all. I had been running the car open loop (no O2's) since the turbo install, but the only time the lower coolant temps 'hurt' me (if you want to call it that) was after switching to E85 and it got cold down here...cold as in like 60* maybe 55* out. The computer wasn't able to correct, so with the cool temps and cool fuel, the car would start to have a small hesitation on the highway.

That was my only issue with pulling the t-stat...But as izzy said, the outdoor ambient temps play a huge role. If it gets cold where you are, then pulling the t-stat is a terrible idea. lol

Thought I'd just post up my own experience with the issue.

ESG-642T · Jun 18, 2012

Still here in ESG land....

Hot Texas day, car temp driving 174-178
bumper to bumper traffic for 15min in Houston never got above 188

Pos t-stat!

ChrisJ · Jun 18, 2012

This guy has remade the wheel...Call the big 3

izzy1111 · Jun 18, 2012

ESG-642T said:
Still here in ESG land....

Hot Texas day, car temp driving 174-178
bumper to bumper traffic for 15min in Houston never got above 188

Pos t-stat!

What are your engine mods?

Putting the NO THERMOSTAT debate to rest

The Cheeks McDuke

izzy1111

WickedSnake00

izzy1111

WickedSnake00

izzy1111

airmike

izzy1111

WickedSnake00

izzy1111

WickedSnake00

izzy1111

WickedSnake00

izzy1111

slonison

maximusneo701

01Sportchic

ESG-642T

ChrisJ

izzy1111

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